Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02.12.2020, 18:46
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,433
Groaned at 171 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,818 Times in 1,862 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
To clarify my point about it not going to improve with better ‘tech’,

Old systems used to use higher temperature water to heat the radiators. A heat pump is able to make water hotter than it does (usually) but its more efficient to use a lower temperature of water. So the most efficient system uses a low temperature (and good insulation). Waiting for ‘better’ heatpumps that make 80 degree water won’t solve the efficiency issue. They already _can_ make about 60 degrees in reasonable weather (higher than -8), but are not set up to work that way to be efficient.
Yes the insulation was for us the deal breaker. we've got fairly poor insulation I would say all told. its not nothing but its not brilliant, but a new insulation wrapper is a huge cost, several tens of thousands, so we arent sure the moderate heat from the pump be enough.

I don't understand the bit about the water temp (genuinely, im not having a go), surely if your radiators are getting much hotter water, they will be hotter, so will emit more heat ? I know currently its less economically efficient but putting that aside, from a physics perspective, poor insulation offset by very hot radiators is logically correct isnt it ? moderately heated radiators cant heat as much space because they arent hot enough ?

sorry if im being stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02.12.2020, 18:50
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,935
Groaned at 337 Times in 228 Posts
Thanked 11,178 Times in 3,873 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
I'm also not sure where this thing about needing underfloor comes from.

Obviously you need a decently insulated house and good radiators, not the big old things, but for example our basement has a radiator while the rest of the house has underfloor. Basement is perfectly warm enough even though the radiator is fed off the same temperature water as the rest.
I know of two people who converted their older radiator system to air heat-pump, both in older properties. All was well until the outside temperature dropped below -5°C. Then their news systems couldn't handle it even with supplementary electric heating in the system (as ours has).

I would be very wary of converting an older property's heating system with radiators to heat pump...
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02.12.2020, 19:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 547
Groaned at 60 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 419 Times in 244 Posts
DL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of many
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
I don't understand the bit about the water temp (genuinely, im not having a go), surely if your radiators are getting much hotter water, they will be hotter, so will emit more heat ? I know currently its less economically efficient but putting that aside, from a physics perspective, poor insulation offset by very hot radiators is logically correct isnt it ? moderately heated radiators cant heat as much space because they arent hot enough ?

sorry if im being stupid.
1. the percentage loss from all the parts other than the radiators is greater for higher temps.
2. the heat pump is more efficient (kw's of heat produced per kw of electricity used) at lower output temperatures. so if you can pump the water around faster and make more of it at 40 degrees it costs less and heats the house the same as super hot water flowing slower.

a modern system only monitors the temp out and the temp returned from rads. no thermostat. maybe an outdoor temp sensor too to scale the heatpump output.

how old is your house? mine is 1970 so well built but not as efficient as a modern building.
I don't think it ever gets below -5 here in ticino at 150m above the lake.
That might well be the most critical consideration. heatpump efficiency plummets below that.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank DL21 for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 02.12.2020, 19:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 3,803
Groaned at 178 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 5,033 Times in 2,391 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Law on oil heating

Geothermal can handle very low temperature. Ours goes down over 100m. Costs more but it works.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02.12.2020, 19:41
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 547
Groaned at 60 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 419 Times in 244 Posts
DL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of many
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
Geothermal can handle very low temperature. Ours goes down over 100m. Costs more but it works.
yep. it's also quieter. but unfortunately it's not always possible.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03.12.2020, 18:09
smileygreebins's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Schwyz
Posts: 502
Groaned at 30 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,026 Times in 297 Posts
smileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
the air source was 'more or less' drop in. total cost about 80k chf for a 32kw unit of which just over 42k was the machine and associated accessories from Hoval. The rest was plumber, electrician and builder. AIL (the electric company) upgraded 300m of supply line to my house for free.
Holy cr*p. I like a HOT house all year 'round, and suspect we'll need something about 20kw size if we switch from oil to a different system. Those cost numbers you've quoted make me flinch though.

We have the nicest chaps who pump in our oil every year, and a very sweet man who comes to maintain that system - it is sad to think they may all lose their livelihoods, regardless of personal feelings on oil and its eco merits.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03.12.2020, 18:13
smileygreebins's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Schwyz
Posts: 502
Groaned at 30 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,026 Times in 297 Posts
smileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
Geothermal can handle very low temperature. Ours goes down over 100m. Costs more but it works.
We regularly experience -15 in the winters, and at worst -25. Even this week, we've had -7 every night, and it's not properly snow season yet! If we do wind up making a switch from oil, I suspect a whopping sized pellet fueled boiler with heating fed up from the ground floor may be our only option in this old house on the mountain...assuming it can pump up through 4 floor levels...hmmm
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank smileygreebins for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 03.12.2020, 21:26
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Olten
Posts: 57
Groaned at 7 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
hoover1 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
. We have tried everything to lower the hard programmed temperature settings, but 'computer says no'.

Not such an eco-friendly change.
Clearly not everything. simple sensor reading needs to be adjusted for temperature and it be done . You also can do it via resistor if you bit more tekki
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03.12.2020, 21:39
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Olten
Posts: 57
Groaned at 7 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
hoover1 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Law on oil heating

I am in process of replacing oel with WP - where 36kw oil heater goes for 17Kw (a2/w35) pump at 2.5kCHF/Kw output price) - all inclusive and it's Hoval done by Swiss local company.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank hoover1 for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 05.12.2020, 16:29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: zh
Posts: 408
Groaned at 18 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 113 Times in 67 Posts
giff is considered knowledgeablegiff is considered knowledgeablegiff is considered knowledgeable
Re: Law on oil heating

I definitely want to get rid of my oil burner next year, but live in a old, not that well insulated house. My only options are fernwaerme (if I manage to convince some of the neighbours too), pellet, and air-based heat pump. I am leaning towards the heat pump, but if that would mean change all the radiators and insulate the walls of the house then it would be too costly.

For the ones who installed heat pumps, can you recommend some readings that would help me learn about them and make a decision?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05.12.2020, 17:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 547
Groaned at 60 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 419 Times in 244 Posts
DL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of many
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
For the ones who installed heat pumps, can you recommend some readings that would help me learn about them and make a decision?
the heating engineer has some software that allows them to the estimate if it would work based on oil consumption, size of how, number of winders, climate where you live, etc.

much earlier, I also went around and measured the temperature difference through and around windows. I then made sure they all fit and were sealed correctly (doors too). I also replaced all the glass with modern stuff with special coatings. The difference between these and the only 1970 double glazing even in the same frames was considerable.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05.12.2020, 17:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 3,803
Groaned at 178 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 5,033 Times in 2,391 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Law on oil heating

But they lose efficiency at -5 to -7. Just when you need it most. And they are noisy, not only will your neighbours hate it, so will you.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05.12.2020, 17:56
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 547
Groaned at 60 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 419 Times in 244 Posts
DL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of many
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
But they lose efficiency at -5 to -7. Just when you need it most. And they are noisy, not only will your neighbours hate it, so will you.
they still work fine - just not as efficiently. worst case, you need a slightly over spec'ed capacity. I went for a 32kw model although the calculations said 24 would be find. it's never had a problem producing the heat required.

Mine makes less noise that the oil boiler did even when measured from outside next to it. the comune and canton also require noise checks and publication of permission prior. so if you get the approval, the neighbous don't have much to say at that point.

burning anything just seems prehistoric in comparison.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank DL21 for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 05.12.2020, 17:59
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Olten
Posts: 57
Groaned at 7 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
hoover1 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
But they lose efficiency at -5 to -7. Just when you need it most. And they are noisy, not only will your neighbours hate it, so will you.
when you size one you actually sizing it for -7A/35W so properly sized system would deliver exactly what the heat loses are at that given temperature.

From there whenever outside temperature being higher - WP would either work shorter time and store heat in the buffer or better - current modern inverter systems just lower the "rpms" to avoid start/stop cycles.

Noise is regulated very strictly in the Swiss communities and no chance that neighbours may hear it or complain about it ( simply such hear-pump would not be approved ) .

As example : 38db at the doors steps of my neighbour is what is expected - and I could lower it to 32dB when needed (or at night).

Needless to say that nobody keeps open doors in winter.


for reference
40dB - Quiet library
30dB - Whisper

so no - all you say is "I don't know - but here I am"...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05.12.2020, 18:04
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Olten
Posts: 57
Groaned at 7 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
hoover1 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Law on oil heating

Quote:
View Post
t I went for a 32kw model although the calculations said 24 would be find. .
How many on/off's per day you do or it's the 2-steps pump (Belaria) where you'd use one mostly and secondary would only start when there is really high demand ?

how many hours per season and stop/starts of compressor you see as that is one of the reasons I sized it just with 10% reserve buffer to avoid defrosting and on/offs (even so it's inverter driven).
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05.12.2020, 18:56
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 547
Groaned at 60 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 419 Times in 244 Posts
DL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of manyDL21 has earned the respect of many
Re: Law on oil heating

I've never looked. I only really track the electricity consumption of it. It runs a lot during the day in the winter (most of the day probably) but usually (almost always in fact) at the first stage.

Yes, its a two stage belaria. I sized it so that the first stage should cover the actual needs.

It has a pretty large buffer tank so can favour running at the warmer parts of the day. it doesn't really run at night at all in fact (I can see this by my low kw/h usage all year in the night time tariff and the fact that its only really day time tariff consumption that jumps up in winter).

In the warmer months it doesn't start that often (when its only providing hot water). I should check exactly the number of starts. I guess the hours are proportional to electricity consumption which is minimal 9 months a year and suddenly jacks up to a lot for the 3 cold months (dec-feb).
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heating oil Merlion Housing in general 12 29.08.2016 17:13
Heating oil smell sailorimc Housing in general 11 12.11.2015 11:57
Oil central heating vs electric heating swinburne Housing in general 5 17.07.2012 13:29
Need Heating Oil hersheybear Housing in general 7 17.01.2009 10:07
Oil fired heating stuartq Housing in general 1 25.10.2007 04:53


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0