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Old 08.04.2019, 20:57
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Law on oil heating

I recall reading something about having to upgrade heating systems to be more efficient. Does anyone know what rules there are? Looking at houses and some have oil heating systems and wondering whether there is deferred maintenance/overhaul expenditure hidden away there.
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Old 08.04.2019, 21:33
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Re: Law on oil heating

I would also check if BS and/or BL have an energy review system like VD. To sell a home in VD you now need an energy efficiency certificate coming from an organisation called CECB (see link) that manages a system that reviews the energy level/quality of the home. This review covers all areas such as insulation, heating system etc.

On the BS/BL cantonal sites there should be something that talks about heating etc. and what is allowed. For example in VD, since the end of 2016, you need a CECB review to be able to install a new oil heating system (they are trying to move everyone away from oil) even if the new one is the latest technology.

Anyhow, here is the VD link. I would look to see what you can find for the canton where you might want to locate. You should also ask the agent who is helping you.

https://www.vd.ch/themes/environneme...t-sur-le-cecb/
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Old 02.09.2019, 14:16
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Re: Law on oil heating

Haven't got around to digging further on this, but saw this page today: https://www.hev-bl.ch/politik/energie-umwelt/muken/
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Old 02.09.2019, 22:04
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Re: Law on oil heating

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I recall reading something about having to upgrade heating systems to be more efficient. Does anyone know what rules there are? Looking at houses and some have oil heating systems and wondering whether there is deferred maintenance/overhaul expenditure hidden away there.

I think in today's world you have to consider that any form of fossil fuel heating system will come with a financial liability. The rules can change suddenly.



The fact that many countries are offering subsidies to switch to solar or other renewables is a clue. At some point, carrot will become stick.



An oil fired system has a finite life. Efficiency-wise, older systems are not as good. The price of oil will keep going up, as will the taxation burden. Even the tank you store the oil in has a service life. These are all pricey things to replace. Gas fired systems are of course the same, just on different timescales and price points.



Our house in France is oil fired, and the boiler was new in 2011. The tank, probably 15 years before that. I am already saving for (and speccing up) a solar/electric alternative, as the designed-in service life of a modern boiler is about 10 to 12 years. Yes, it might go on for another decade. But it might also fail on Christmas Eve when the family are visiting. (As it did last year!). I don't want to be forced to replace like with like (at huge cost) in an emergency, when for a bit more at least the fuel cost will be dramatically slashed.


However, I have no idea how it works for communal systems! The building I live in here has an oil fired system, but I've never seen it.


Regards




Ian
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Old 02.09.2019, 22:22
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Re: Law on oil heating

Are you perhaps thinking of the emissions level monitoring?

At the yearly service the heating guy measures emissions levels - he is required to do this in SZ. Ours always passed with flying colors. Then one year it didn't.

So we got a letter from the canton telling us that we had to replace the boiler, we were given a 5 year Frist to do so.

I was a tad skeptical, as the technician is also the sales guy. Fox/hen house and all that...

But the canton offered a second check with a neutral technician. Turned out that the reason we were suddenly above the limit was that the acceptible levels had been changed, nothing to do with how our old furnace worked.

We could have changed just the boiler, but upon researching the options it didn't make sense to plonk a new boiler onto a 25 year old unit. So we replaced the whole thing, to the tune of 25K.

---

My eco-rant:

The new modern, efficient, latest computer technology, all-singing-all-dancing unit burns ca. 20% more oil than the 25 year old simple mechanical system. After countless visits from technicians, it seems that the damned thing is factory programmed for 'Swiss Sauna' room temps rather than the 15 degrees I prefer. We have tried everything to lower the hard programmed temperature settings, but 'computer says no'.

Not such an eco-friendly change.
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Old 03.09.2019, 12:00
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Re: Law on oil heating

there will no doubt be many blunt instruments to bring about change for 'ecological' reasons that ultimately end up having a net negative ecological impact.
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Old 02.12.2020, 12:48
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Re: Law on oil heating

Reviving this post - we've just received this personal note from the chap who annually supplies the oil for our central heating system, which I think I've translated relatively accurately:

On September 25th, the National Council and Council of States passed a new CO2 law. In a first step, this law includes a doubling of the CO2 levy on heating oil and, in a second step, a de facto extensive ban on oil heating. In addition, the fuel price is to be increased by 12 cents.

Switzerland is already exemplary when it comes to climate protection. We are all committed to reducing CO2 emissions. Low-sulfur eco-heating oil was specially developed for modern condensing boilers and will become standard quality from 2023. Oil heating has thus become significantly more energy efficient. The development of a CO2-neutral bio heating oil is also being promoted. Switching to a different energy source is associated with great financial outlay. In contrast, measures such as renovating the building - replacing windows, improving the roof insulation and renewing the facade - are more energy-efficient.

Our industry is already investing in CO2-neutral energies. Most of our quality fuels contain a bio component.

We don't need new taxes, regulations and bans. In terms of a sustainable and affordable environmental policy, it is advisable to hold a referendum for a referendum against the CO2 law. Please support this with your signature.
You can find more information at www.vernuenftiq-bleiben.ch

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Old 02.12.2020, 13:13
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Re: Law on oil heating

So the oil seller wants to stop people switching away from oil? surprise surprise.

Spin it how you like, oil systems are dirty, smelly, expensive, high maintenance and plain archaic.

There are a lot of old systems out there and older people in large houses will just keep them going because it doesn't make economic sense for them to invest in replacement. but if you're younger (so have time to absorb the cost) or need to replace it because it can't be repaired, it makes no sense not to switch to a heat pump.

I used to have oil and spent about 7k a year on oil plus at least another 1k keeping the system going, cleaned, swept, etc. The smell, noise and space used was completely unacceptable. I switched to an air source heap pump which was a really expensive project but costs about 3k a year to run, is more effective at heating, quiet and freed up two rooms in my basement for a good sized gym and a small workshop. Worst case, it would take 16 years to pay for itself (under the unrealistic assumption that oil prices would remain low and the crapped out boiler would have lasted that long) so I can see why people keep the old tech going but ultimately in terms of quality of life improvements I couldn't be happier. Presumably it has added some value to my house and as the boiler needed replacing, a good portion of it was tax deductible.
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Old 02.12.2020, 14:11
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Re: Law on oil heating

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So the oil seller wants to stop people switching away from oil? surprise surprise.

Spin it how you like, oil systems are dirty, smelly, expensive, high maintenance and plain archaic.

There are a lot of old systems out there and older people in large houses will just keep them going because it doesn't make economic sense for them to invest in replacement. but if you're younger (so have time to absorb the cost) or need to replace it because it can't be repaired, it makes no sense not to switch to a heat pump.

I used to have oil and spent about 7k a year on oil plus at least another 1k keeping the system going, cleaned, swept, etc. The smell, noise and space used was completely unacceptable. I switched to an air source heap pump which was a really expensive project but costs about 3k a year to run, is more effective at heating, quiet and freed up two rooms in my basement for a good sized gym and a small workshop. Worst case, it would take 16 years to pay for itself (under the unrealistic assumption that oil prices would remain low and the crapped out boiler would have lasted that long) so I can see why people keep the old tech going but ultimately in terms of quality of life improvements I couldn't be happier. Presumably it has added some value to my house and as the boiler needed replacing, a good portion of it was tax deductible.
Our air warm-pump costs CHF650 a year in electricity and we had it serviced for the first time this year after 12 years running day and night. The service took 30 minutes and cost CHF120.

I vacuum leaves out once a year and it's big and noisy. We heat to 23° in winter...
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Old 02.12.2020, 14:28
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Re: Law on oil heating

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Our air warm-pump costs CHF650 a year in electricity
no doubt depends on the energy efficiency and size of house. Its not the absolute number that is relevant rather than the comparison between the oil and electric costs, in my case 7+1k -> 3k or about 2.5 times cheaper.

2k of that 3k comes from the 3 months Dec, Jan and Feb. the rest of the year its fairly mild in ticino and I guess its mostly hot water usage.

I measured the noise of the heat pump (a 32kw model) and it's quieter than the old oil furnace (which was INSIDE the house). If yours is noisy it might have some vibration issues.
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Old 02.12.2020, 14:30
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Re: Law on oil heating

Actually, I'm wondering what the alternatives are for the oil heater when the existing one dies. How much does air source heat pump cost and can it be a drop in replacement?

Not sure how big/noisy the outdoor compotent is which might have impact on us and neighbours plus the existing oil heater room is underground on an incline and awkwardly located for access to the outside.
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Old 02.12.2020, 15:02
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Re: Law on oil heating

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.............Please support this with your signature.
You can find more information at www.vernuenftiq-bleiben.ch[/I]
Link doesn't work. A good way, um "vernünftig zu bleiben" (stay reasonable)

Imo it makes no sense to allow new oil-heating being installed and neither to develop these systems any further. Throwing them out while they still work properly doesn't make sense either though.
They use gas here - not much better I suppose but as they replaced the heater a couple of years ago I suspect it will be accepted longer than oil.

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Actually, I'm wondering what the alternatives are for the oil heater when the existing one dies. How much does air source heat pump cost and can it be a drop in replacement?

Not sure how big/noisy the outdoor compotent is which might have impact on us and neighbours plus the existing oil heater room is underground on an incline and awkwardly located for access to the outside.
I came across that a while ago and it sure sounds interesting. Didn't investigate it any further yet though.
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Old 02.12.2020, 15:49
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Re: Law on oil heating

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Actually, I'm wondering what the alternatives are for the oil heater when the existing one dies. How much does air source heat pump cost and can it be a drop in replacement?

Not sure how big/noisy the outdoor compotent is which might have impact on us and neighbours plus the existing oil heater room is underground on an incline and awkwardly located for access to the outside.
For me the outdoor part is a bit too noisy for my liking, but they are improving all the time; bigger ones running at lower speed are quieter.

The link from the outside unit to the inside unit is a couple of pipes (basically it's a (big) split-unit aircon in reverse). So whatever route the oil filling takes so could the heat pump. Or your boiler room must have ventilation giving another access point; failing that they just drill diagonally up until they reach the outside (the guy I asked pointed to the corner and made jackhammer noises ).

I would prefer earth heat, but the initial cost is too high and we have too many drains and other stuff around our house.
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Old 02.12.2020, 16:15
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Re: Law on oil heating

geo wasn't an option for me. the two 200m bore holes required would have been chf 30k each, there would be no guarantee they would not strike water (I'm 150m about the lake) and they would need a 2kw pump to lift up the additional vertical from house to road. So would have cost a fair bit more to run too.

the air source was 'more or less' drop in. I didn't change the plumbing beyond the technical room in the basement. a fair amount of work to bury a 50cm diameter conduit for insulated pipes and cables. helicopter to deliver machine and remove waste. total cost about 80k chf for a 32kw unit of which just over 42k was the machine and associated accessories from Hoval. The rest was plumber, electrician and builder. AIL (the electric company) upgraded 300m of supply line to my house for free. Otherwise that might have cost quite a bit. I could have saved about chf 15k on a lower powered (24kw) imported (german) option and using a plumber who wasn't local but decided against it.

it's quieter than the old oil boiler and outside the house rather than inside.

I'd already changed the pool heating to it's own heatpump before (that was previously a different circuit from the oil heater). That was chf 4k (I installed it myself) for a 14kw (A15W26) set up.
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Old 02.12.2020, 16:24
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Re: Law on oil heating

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geo wasn't an option for me. the two 200m bore holes required would have been chf 30k each, there would be no guarantee they would not strike water (I'm 150m about the lake) and they would need a 2kw pump to lift up the additional vertical from house to road. So would have cost a fair bit more to run too.

the air source was 'more or less' drop in. I didn't change the plumbing beyond the technical room in the basement. a fair amount of work to bury a 50cm diameter conduit for insulated pipes and cables. helicopter to deliver machine and remove waste. total cost about 80k chf for a 32kw unit of which just over 42k was the machine and associated accessories from Hoval. The rest was plumber, electrician and builder. AIL (the electric company) upgraded 300m of supply line to my house for free. Otherwise that might have cost quite a bit. I could have saved about chf 15k on a lower powered (24kw) imported (german) option and using a plumber who wasn't local but decided against it.

it's quieter than the old oil boiler and outside the house rather than inside.

I'd already changed the pool heating to it's own heatpump before (that was previously a different circuit from the oil heater). That was chf 4k (I installed it myself) for a 14kw (A15W26) set up.
You must also have the room height to do this if you want to put in underfloor heating. Otherwise its radiators and it may not have the power to heat them enough. This was the primary reason we havent switched yet because you cant get enough heat into radiators.
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Old 02.12.2020, 17:37
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Re: Law on oil heating

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You must also have the room height to do this if you want to put in underfloor heating. Otherwise its radiators and it may not have the power to heat them enough. This was the primary reason we havent switched yet because you cant get enough heat into radiators.
I was worried about that too. I didn't want to remove the nice antique floor to install underfloor so kept the radiators. But the new system easily produces enough heat - more than the old 60kw oil burner managed in fact. I think it can heat the water up to 57 celsius which is more than it needs to. Just pumping it around a little faster at 40-50 with the variable speed circulation pump is enough (the controller does all this automatically of course). it never gets super cold here though.

It helps that the old house has badly insulated hot water pipes running under the floor anyway, so there are plenty of areas with unintended 'under floor heating'
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Old 02.12.2020, 18:08
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Re: Law on oil heating

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I was worried about that too. I didn't want to remove the nice antique floor to install underfloor so kept the radiators. But the new system easily produces enough heat - more than the old 60kw oil burner managed in fact. I think it can heat the water up to 57 celsius which is more than it needs to. Just pumping it around a little faster at 40-50 with the variable speed circulation pump is enough (the controller does all this automatically of course). it never gets super cold here though.

It helps that the old house has badly insulated hot water pipes running under the floor anyway, so there are plenty of areas with unintended 'under floor heating'
Yes right now im not prepared quite to make the gamble. We had a quote for it but if we install it and go through all that faff and its not hot enough we'll be kicking ourselves. Im going to wait a few years with our wood fire / electric radiators combo then cut across later when the tech has advanced.
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Old 02.12.2020, 18:10
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Re: Law on oil heating

I'm also not sure where this thing about needing underfloor comes from.

Obviously you need a decently insulated house and good radiators, not the big old things, but for example our basement has a radiator while the rest of the house has underfloor. Basement is perfectly warm enough even though the radiator is fed off the same temperature water as the rest.
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Old 02.12.2020, 18:19
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Re: Law on oil heating

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Yes right now im not prepared quite to make the gamble. We had a quote for it but if we install it and go through all that faff and its not hot enough we'll be kicking ourselves. Im going to wait a few years with our wood fire / electric radiators combo then cut across later when the tech has advanced.
It won’t change much. It’s about as efficient as it will get. As newtoswitz says, the efficiency of your insulation is orders of magnitude more important. I actually changed all the window glass the year before and that made a huge difference.

Very large rooms benefit from underfloor heating more of course because radiators are only against the wall.

If you have a crazily powerful fuel installation maybe, but as I said, I replaced a 60kw oil with a 32kw heat pump with no changes to the radiators and it’s possible to maintain higher temps in the house now than before.
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Old 02.12.2020, 18:24
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Re: Law on oil heating

To clarify my point about it not going to improve with better ‘tech’,

Old systems used to use higher temperature water to heat the radiators. A heat pump is able to make water hotter than it does (usually) but its more efficient to use a lower temperature of water. So the most efficient system uses a low temperature (and good insulation). Waiting for ‘better’ heatpumps that make 80 degree water won’t solve the efficiency issue. They already _can_ make about 60 degrees in reasonable weather (higher than -8), but are not set up to work that way to be efficient.
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