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Old 20.04.2019, 20:08
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Cooker connection - 3 phase?

So finally daughter and husband + dog have finally found an apt in Geneva.

The cooker connection is just a socket with a hole in it. I am guessing that it is 3 phase 400v but not sure as the place is probably 1950s/60s.

We obviously know that we need to get them an electrician to hook up but are hard wired connections always 400v. They will probably get a second hand cooker from marketplace so if they get a 400v free standing one would it be suitable or does he need to make 2 visits.

Would be really grateful of recommendation of an electrician in Geneva too -
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Old 20.04.2019, 21:10
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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So finally daughter and husband + dog have finally found an apt in Geneva.

The cooker connection is just a socket with a hole in it. I am guessing that it is 3 phase 400v but not sure as the place is probably 1950s/60s.

We obviously know that we need to get them an electrician to hook up but are hard wired connections always 400v. They will probably get a second hand cooker from marketplace so if they get a 400v free standing one would it be suitable or does he need to make 2 visits.

Would be really grateful of recommendation of an electrician in Geneva too -
Hardwired is 230V, 2x230V or 400V when it comes to cooking.
What do you mean with "a socket with a hole in it"

They need to determine first what kind of connection they have/can provide, like voltage and amps, 1 phase, 2 or 3. only if they know that they can start looking for a cooker, if it is a match it is a piece of cake for every electrician to connect such.
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Old 20.04.2019, 21:18
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

We have a spare 3P.

It's 380V betwwen phaes, 220V to N.

Where's the problem?

Tom
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Old 20.04.2019, 21:30
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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We have a spare 3P.

It's 380V betwwen phaes, 220V to N.

Where's the problem?

Tom
The problem is that he has a hole in a socket and probably has no clue what is behind it.
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Old 20.04.2019, 21:38
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

Thanks for the information - we are going down this week to have a look - just frustrating that there is no plug to plug straight into. Looks like an electrician first to determine what is needed and then a return visit to fit the oven
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Old 20.04.2019, 21:40
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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Thanks for the information - we are going down this week to have a look - just frustrating that there is no plug to plug straight into. Looks like an electrician first to determine what is needed and then a return visit to fit the oven
Turn off the 3 trip switches associated with the cooker. Pop the cover off & take a photo, then post on the forum or send to your electrician. (The no of trips should answer the question)
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Old 20.04.2019, 22:04
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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So finally daughter and husband + dog have finally found an apt in Geneva.

The cooker connection is just a socket with a hole in it. I am guessing that it is 3 phase 400v but not sure as the place is probably 1950s/60s.

We obviously know that we need to get them an electrician to hook up but are hard wired connections always 400v. They will probably get a second hand cooker from marketplace so if they get a 400v free standing one would it be suitable or does he need to make 2 visits.

Would be really grateful of recommendation of an electrician in Geneva too -

It depends where the flat is. I think there is a lot of the older flats, on the south side of the Rhone, which have the French Electric system 1 x 240v x 20 or 25amp. I have seen a few in the Champel region.
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Old 20.04.2019, 22:08
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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It depends where the flat is. I think there is a lot of the older flats, on the south side of the Rhone, which have the French Electric system 1 x 240v x 20 or 25amp. I have seen a few in the Champel region.
Most cookers can be connected to single phase or multi phase, certainly true for both the hobs I bought in France. Same true for stuff sold in Ikea Geneva as I had a look at the connections.
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Old 20.04.2019, 22:33
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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Thanks for the information - we are going down this week to have a look - just frustrating that there is no plug to plug straight into. Looks like an electrician first to determine what is needed and then a return visit to fit the oven
In quite a few older flats in Geneva it's still necessary to 'hard-wire' a cooker into the system, and it sounds quite likely that a 3-phase is what your hole in a socket is.
Best to check with the regie, they should be able to tell you which system the apartment block uses, as well as any other idiosyncrasies of the building.
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Old 21.04.2019, 00:53
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

Lucky you. It is probably a standard 1960s 3 phase socket. Plugs on anything, especially hair dryers when used by people with wet hair are dangerous and need to be used sensibly. Several cookers on ricardo, the ones that don't sell, will likely have matching plugs. We have one that works great. If they like the 60s apartment they might want a period cooker?

My biggest safety concern here is that the apartment might not have a modern consumer unit/fuse board. RCD protection etc.

There is probably nothing wrong with the socket. I wouldn't spend money on an electrician to install the cooker, but then I am a tight a***.

3 phase appliances are generally better performing & better quality. It is wonderful having 3 phase in the apartment. You can even buy a 3 phase industrial CNC machine off ricardo and hook it up in the kitchen, washroom, whatever.
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Old 21.04.2019, 01:27
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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Thanks for the information - we are going down this week to have a look - just frustrating that there is no plug to plug straight into. Looks like an electrician first to determine what is needed and then a return visit to fit the oven
How about checking with the landlord?
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Old 21.04.2019, 16:53
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

Yes, first place to ask is the landlord/agency, if you're renting. Or with the caretaker/manager in the case of rental or ownership. And in any event, the neighbours.
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Old 02.05.2019, 12:08
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

So we went down to look at the connection. We removed the main cooker fuse.

The wall fitting is white plastic with a circular plastic centre section which includes an internal cable clamp. On removing the central plastic section (2 screws), a metal skelitonised inner section was revealed - this is held on by 4 screws one in each cornered behind this is exposed the cooker supply cable.

The cable consists of a black wire and a yellow wire only. On refitting the fuse the cable measured 230v AC.

Our concern is that we have a 230v supply but there does not appear to be an obvious Ground or Earth.

The agency sent someone round who seemed to think that the inner metal plate is the Earth - although he did not test it.

We are not sure about this - any ideas?
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Old 02.05.2019, 12:15
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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So we went down to look at the connection. We removed the main cooker fuse.

The wall fitting is white plastic with a circular plastic centre section which includes an internal cable clamp. On removing the central plastic section (2 screws), a metal skelitonised inner section was revealed - this is held on by 4 screws one in each cornered behind this is exposed the cooker supply cable.

The cable consists of a black wire and a yellow wire only. On refitting the fuse the cable measured 230v AC.

Our concern is that we have a 230v supply but there does not appear to be an obvious Ground or Earth.

The agency sent someone round who seemed to think that the inner metal plate is the Earth - although he did not test it.

We are not sure about this - any ideas?
It should be possible with a multi meter to test the earth connection to other earth connections in the flat.

I have seen the neutral & earth combined in both CH & Germany, something I thought was dangerous however electricians say it's normal.
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Old 02.05.2019, 12:18
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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It should be possible with a multi meter to test the earth connection to other earth connections in the flat.

I have seen the neutral & earth combined in both CH & Germany, something I thought was dangerous however electricians say it's normal.
We tried with a meter between the metal plate and an adjacent cold water tap - no luck.

Just don't understand it ..
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Old 02.05.2019, 12:38
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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It should be possible with a multi meter to test the earth connection to other earth connections in the flat.

I have seen the neutral & earth combined in both CH & Germany, something I thought was dangerous however electricians say it's normal.
100% correct. It is both "dangerous" and normal, and Legal (which I am very happy about)!
Combining earth and neutral, yes, it is more dangerous! This is why Swiss flats that use this type of earthing are forced to have the formal SENA(Electrical safety inspection) re-evaluated every 5 years, not 20 which is the norm.

This is why I suggested the the main fuse board might not have RCD, and that this was more of a worry. RCD will not work with that system. Dangerous place Switzerland. Got to love it for that. It is not a *complete* nanny state yet.

Have a look and see what is connected to that earth. Do try the earth test suggested. Maybe post a photo?

However, it looks like you may well be faced with a perfectly legal, but unfortunately single phase cooker socket with "no (UK style) earth". I wouldn't plug my CNC into that. Would be perfect for bacon and egg on a double insulated hot plate though.

I guess I did live with a 240V cooker in the UK without complaining. I now have a Swiss Tiba (Cooking on wood!) . Now I am worried that the cats will jump on the oven not realising it is practically always hot.
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Old 02.05.2019, 12:42
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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Our concern is that we have a 230v supply but there does not appear to be an obvious Ground or Earth.
If there are only two wires it can't be anything else than 230 V. This is not the USA with center tapped transformers where you can have 120 V and 240V.

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There is probably nothing wrong with the socket. I wouldn't spend money on an electrician to install the cooker, but then I am a tight a***.
Because the law says hardwired has to be done by an electrician.

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I have seen the neutral & earth combined in both CH & Germany, something I thought was dangerous however electricians say it's normal.
Potentially lethal, and used in the past. No longer allowed for new installations, but for old ones grandfathering rules apply.

It is the TN-C earthing system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthi...tem#TT_network

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This is why I suggested the the main fuse board might not have RCD, and that this was more of a worry. RCD will not work with that system.
Wrong. RCD also work with TN-C. But in that case the RCD must be in the socket and not at the fuse board. Still, an RCD will not protect you in case the PEN wire is broken down stream.
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Old 02.05.2019, 13:44
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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Because the law says hardwired has to be done by an electrician.
Fortunately we are talking about a socket, so plug n play, not hard wired.

Would be good to see a photo.
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Old 02.05.2019, 18:08
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

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So we went down to look at the connection. We removed the main cooker fuse.

The wall fitting is white plastic with a circular plastic centre section which includes an internal cable clamp. On removing the central plastic section (2 screws), a metal skelitonised inner section was revealed - this is held on by 4 screws one in each cornered behind this is exposed the cooker supply cable.

The cable consists of a black wire and a yellow wire only. On refitting the fuse the cable measured 230v AC.

Our concern is that we have a 230v supply but there does not appear to be an obvious Ground or Earth.

The agency sent someone round who seemed to think that the inner metal plate is the Earth - although he did not test it.

We are not sure about this - any ideas?
First of all, always measure and never assume when it comes to electrics and safety. If the plate is functioning as earth it should have a wire attached to it.

What is the max amps of the fuse? Cooking on only one 230V group can become an annoying game of patience and would to me be worth a proper investment to upgrade to at least 2x230V or even better a 3f-400V connection.

You can discuss with the landlord if he wants to pay for it all, or share in the costs of a change, if the cabinet can provide it, and new cables can be pulled through the existing pipe it is easily done, else the costs might easily go above 1000,-
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Old 02.05.2019, 21:40
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Re: Cooker connection - 3 phase?

Thanks to you all for the info.

Edwin, there was no wire attached to the metal plate. The amps of the fuse was I think 25 amps.

Regie seem to think it is acceptable and what is our problem but I suppose being used to the UK where regulations are so strict in relation to Earth, plugs over sinks and washing machines in bathrooms this situation is making me anxious and Mr S is obsessed with health and safety.

Will report back soon....
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