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  #21  
Old 12.02.2020, 15:38
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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I think they will be put in due to the kitchen renovation. I have this line in the works:

Einbau von 3 x FI/LS 13A ( Für GWM)

not sure what FI/LS stands for in German (or GWM for that matter - dishwasher?)
FI/LS in normal language means that the switch will turn of if there is a difference between the main and neutral meaning electric is leaking to somewhere else, could be you, could be a drop of water in your coffee machine causing this.

GWM = Geschirrwaschmaschine = Dishwasher.

You might want to ask what the costs would be to replace your whole cabinet for a modern one where everything has proper RCD protection, and 2 or 3 spare groups for future plans. Your current switches are reaching a certain age where replacement really doesn't harm anyway. And have a main switch for the whole cabinet in it also, those are very handsome when doing work on the cabinet and are not so costly.
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:40
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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I survived without them in the UK for 32 years & Switzerland for a further 20 years, my mother is still alive at 90 & has never had one.

And not that long ago, in CH, I believe in Biel, 2 kids died because the landlord was to cheap to invest 100 CHF in a RCD.......
Classic case of hairdryer-in-bathtub.....


You very seldom need them RCDs, but when you do, you really do.
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:42
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Classic case of hairdryer-in-bathtub.....
Darwinian theory in action, people used to be taught to treat electricity with respect.
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:42
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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1. they are access points - makes it easier to replace a wire if one gets burnt out / eaten / a new spur needed
Without wanting to derail the thread - is it possible to install a power socket in place of the access point? The cables and the hole are already there - the question is, is there usually enough space to make room for the extra space required for the socket? Thanks
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:45
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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I survived without them in the UK for 32 years & Switzerland for a further 20 years, my mother is still alive at 90 & has never had one.

Working in the film business we often had 64 amp & 128 amp 3 phase, never had a RCB connected.

Plenty of people will cut the earth connection as they can be a pain in the arse tripping too often, I think that is more dangerous. Sound men on film sets always cut the earth on their extension leads because of hum
RCD's don't need an earth connection to switch of when electricity is leaking through your body

If they trip to often than people should start cleaning their equipement.
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:46
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Darwinian theory in action, people used to be taught to treat electricity with respect.
Nothing to do with respect if you touch your laundry-machine and can't let go anymore while your heart is rushing overtime waiting to collapse.
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:50
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Nothing to do with respect if you touch your laundry-machine and can't let go anymore while your heart is rushing overtime waiting to collapse.
People should be taught to touch electrical appliance with the back of their fingers first, then if it's live your fingers will contract & break the connection. I was taught this on my first day working in the film business.
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Old 12.02.2020, 15:53
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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You might want to ask what the costs would be to replace your whole cabinet for a modern one where everything has proper RCD protection, and 2 or 3 spare groups for future plans. Your current switches are reaching a certain age where replacement really doesn't harm anyway. And have a main switch for the whole cabinet in it also, those are very handsome when doing work on the cabinet and are not so costly.
I'd like to know this too.

Half of our circuits have RCDs and half have just the old screw-in fuses.

Guess which of the two feeds the bathroom?
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:03
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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FI/LS in normal language means that the switch will turn of if there is a difference between the main and neutral meaning electric is leaking to somewhere else, could be you, could be a drop of water in your coffee machine causing this.

GWM = Geschirrwaschmaschine = Dishwasher.

You might want to ask what the costs would be to replace your whole cabinet for a modern one where everything has proper RCD protection, and 2 or 3 spare groups for future plans. Your current switches are reaching a certain age where replacement really doesn't harm anyway. And have a main switch for the whole cabinet in it also, those are very handsome when doing work on the cabinet and are not so costly.
I guess FI/LS somehow refers to the RCD. I just wondered if anyone know what the letters stand for?
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:04
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Nothing to do with respect if you touch your laundry-machine and can't let go anymore while your heart is rushing overtime waiting to collapse.
I was an electrician a long time ago. Back before health and safety was really a big thing. Lost count of the amount of shocks I got, thrown off my feet, whole body clenched, falling off ladders after touching live stuff. It kinda became routine and almost funny, attaching meggers to things, giving people shocks etc.

Until one day a guy died, he walked into a bare cable hanging from the ceiling, it wasn't even connected but according to the investigation, it had built up a huge static charge, MICC cable, couple hundred meters long.
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:16
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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I guess FI/LS somehow refers to the RCD. I just wondered if anyone know what the letters stand for?
FI: Fehlerstromschutzschalter

(This is your RCD).

LS: Leitungsschutzschalter

(This is your circuit breaker)

So, on this context, LS is basically your electronic over-current fuse and a device with FI/LS also is a residual current device.
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:23
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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FI: Fehlerstromschutzschalter
Thanks. Now someone explain to me how you get FI from Fehlerstromschutzschalter???
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:41
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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I was an electrician a long time ago. Back before health and safety was really a big thing. Lost count of the amount of shocks I got, thrown off my feet, whole body clenched, falling off ladders after touching live stuff. It kinda became routine and almost funny, attaching meggers to things, giving people shocks etc.

Until one day a guy died, he walked into a bare cable hanging from the ceiling, it wasn't even connected but according to the investigation, it had built up a huge static charge, MICC cable, couple hundred meters long.
Electrician since mid 80's and same here. Till I in the 90's got stuck for some seconds between 2 different 25A phases. According to people on the same floor I screamed like a pig that got killed, lost control of my Blatter so wet my pants and it took some hours before my heart was back to normal rhythm. Just was lucky the main flow did not pass my heart else it be the end of it. After that I got deep respect, and only once more got a big bang on my hands due to a guy from another technical company who simply removed my warning signs and put the fuse back in while I was working on it. Chased him through half the factory but got to beat him up, after which he complained..., his boss gave him another punch and instantly fired him.

I've had it with "just touch it and you'll know.."
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:44
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Thanks. Now someone explain to me how you get FI from Fehlerstromschutzschalter???
The truth is that some of us work with terms of which we after half a decade still have no clue how they ever thought of it...

Best I can come up with is FehlerEinrichting, and since FE already was taking by earthing they just took the next letter and came up with FI to avoid confusion.
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  #35  
Old 12.02.2020, 16:47
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Thanks. Now someone explain to me how you get FI from Fehlerstromschutzschalter???
I had to google this but the I is the symbol for current (same as English).
So loosely translated FI is current error.
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:53
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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People should be taught to touch electrical appliance with the back of their fingers first, then if it's live your fingers will contract & break the connection. I was taught this on my first day working in the film business.
what about things like washing machines etc that suddenly develop faults? <cough> whirlpool <cough> should you touch everything with the back of your hand? how about pipes and radiators too? You can never have enough electrical safety, people are pretty blasé about electricity now a days, and thats fine, until the one time its not
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Old 12.02.2020, 16:59
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

The worse you can do is touch live with one hand and earth with the other.

Even when working on non-live house circuits , I try and keep one hand away.
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Old 12.02.2020, 17:13
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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what about things like washing machines etc that suddenly develop faults? <cough> whirlpool <cough> should you touch everything with the back of your hand? how about pipes and radiators too? You can never have enough electrical safety, people are pretty blasé about electricity now a days, and thats fine, until the one time its not
In addition to some fault that would make the case live, the earth needs to be broken. Pipes should be earthed, if not likely you will get a tingle in the bath when you touch a tap, this was common in Hotels in France in the 70's unless you have modern plastic piping
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Old 12.02.2020, 21:38
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Without wanting to derail the thread - is it possible to install a power socket in place of the access point? The cables and the hole are already there - the question is, is there usually enough space to make room for the extra space required for the socket? Thanks
In my apartment these "access points" are bigger than a normal 86x86 so in my case I cannot put a socket, a switch, etc. instead of the cover, therefore I recommend you to remove the cover and check it for yourself if they are the same size as a normal one to start with.
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Old 12.02.2020, 21:44
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Re: Electrical wiring - routing in a concrete house built in the 70s

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Be aware also that Swiss electricians seem to have a general disdain for the wiring regs - don't expect any wire to necessarily be what it should be according to the sheath colour.
Yes, last year we had the electrical inspection, and several sockets were wired backwards, etc. (never touched since the building was built).

I fixed most myself, so cut the electricians estimate in half.

Tom
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