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Old 10.03.2020, 17:30
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

I just explained the situation to a legal person, and it looks like my personal liability insurance is the way to go. He reviewed my coverage and says he couldnít understand how my insurers would say Iím not covered for this, so Iíll be writing them a letter tomorrow.
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  #82  
Old 10.03.2020, 18:02
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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I just explained the situation to a legal person, and it looks like my personal liability insurance is the way to go. He reviewed my coverage and says he couldnít understand how my insurers would say Iím not covered for this, so Iíll be writing them a letter tomorrow.
Fully agree with the person you spoke to.

Don't ask your insurance. Report the problem and give them name and address of the farmer. That's it, they will have to sort out the details with him.
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  #83  
Old 10.03.2020, 18:24
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

It is an interesting question- and I do wish you luck. But it leaves me pondering about personal responsibility. If insurance pays even when clear warnings were given to all re extreme weather and the need to secure/stake down, garden furniture and trampolines, etc - then why bother to take the trouble to be responsible???
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Old 10.03.2020, 18:34
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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It is an interesting question- and I do wish you luck. But it leaves me pondering about personal responsibility. If insurance pays even when clear warnings were given to all re extreme weather and the need to secure/stake down, garden furniture and trampolines, etc - then why bother to take the trouble to be responsible???
Because OP is paying extra for his insurance to be allowed such mistakes this discussion can be skipped between OP and his insurance. Wether or not we feel he might be to blame personally, nah not according to me and luckily that is of no concern.
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  #85  
Old 10.03.2020, 18:36
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

Edwin, I'd say most of us do pay extra for the purpose- but premiums depend on some personal responsibility.
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  #86  
Old 10.03.2020, 18:36
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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Hi, I'm not sure if this belongs here, but here goes...

I rent an apartment surrounded by vineyards. We had a trampoline in the garden which blew away in a recent storm into a neighbouring vineyard causing damage. Vineyard owner asked if I had insurance to cover the damage. My home insurance didn't cover it, as the damage didn't take place at my home. Personal liability insurance didn't cover it as the incident wasn't caused by me (it was the wind). When I called them, the ECA told me that their insurance only covered my property, and it would have to be a joint claim to them with the vineyard owner, whose insurance should cover his property, but it turned out the vineyards weren't part of his property so not covered. The ECA did send a further letter adding to this though, which I'll mention below.

The vineyard owner now wants to present me with a bill to cover the damage (he says he doesn't know what this will be yet, but I suspect its going to be big bucks).

This all feels very forced, and I have no idea what the legal situation might be.

One further thing - the trampoline in question was left by the previous tenants. When they moved out, they asked if we would like to buy it, along with some other bits and pieces. It was left at the property, but once we moved in and had the chance to inspect it, it was in such a bad state that we didn't complete the sale. By this time the previous tenants had left the country though.

I mention this because a) I don't actually know if I actually own the thing which caused this damage at this point and b) the follow up letter I got from the ECA also stated that the trampoline should have been made secure in the bad weather. This might be the case, but seeing as I didn't buy or install the thing, I have no idea if it had been made safe in the first place.

Anyone got a take on this? Am I legally responsible?
Obviously get professional legal help if he sends you a bill. I would say he has no rights

You have been Switzerlanded. It happens to the best of us!
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  #87  
Old 10.03.2020, 18:49
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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I just explained the situation to a legal person, and it looks like my personal liability insurance is the way to go. He reviewed my coverage and says he couldnít understand how my insurers would say Iím not covered for this, so Iíll be writing them a letter tomorrow.
I'm very pleased to hear that. I hope everything works out for the best.

Do keep us informed.
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Old 10.03.2020, 18:57
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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It is an interesting question- and I do wish you luck. But it leaves me pondering about personal responsibility. If insurance pays even when clear warnings were given to all re extreme weather and the need to secure/stake down, garden furniture and trampolines, etc - then why bother to take the trouble to be responsible???
For what itís worth, upon seeing the size of the trampoline in question he did say he didnít think it could have been usefully tethered, or been reasonably expected to blow away, and so while I was ultimately responsible for it, he doubted it was negligence, even though I am covered for that too.
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Old 10.03.2020, 19:34
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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Edwin, I'd say most of us do pay extra for the purpose- but premiums depend on some personal responsibility.
All true, but this to me sounds like "yeah, shit happens and could have happened to me" I'd rather see them stop refunding tablets and laptops that people themselves drop in their own homes.
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  #90  
Old 10.03.2020, 19:47
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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All true, but this to me sounds like "yeah, shit happens and could have happened to me" I'd rather see them stop refunding tablets and laptops that people themselves drop in their own homes.
If you didnít want this level of insurance, can you not just opt for a lower tier? In the UK I paid extra for exactly this kind of tech insurance. It wasnít cheap but thatís the cover I wanted.
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  #91  
Old 10.03.2020, 20:02
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

Now, go get legal insurance, costs around 300 swissies a year but gives you *great* peace of mind and stops you having to depend on the sometimes very doubful advice of the "experts" on this forum...
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  #92  
Old 10.03.2020, 20:10
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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Because OP is paying extra for his insurance to be allowed such mistakes this discussion can be skipped between OP and his insurance. Wether or not we feel he might be to blame personally, nah not according to me and luckily that is of no concern.
The OP was certainly not Grossly Negligent, only negligent so should be covered regardless. For example gross negligence would be crashing a car whilst drunk, rather than causing the same accident whilst sober.
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Old 10.03.2020, 20:12
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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Now, go get legal insurance, costs around 300 swissies a year but gives you *great* peace of mind and stops you having to depend on the sometimes very doubful advice of the "experts" on this forum...
Iím going to do this, I got a quote today. It wonít cover me for this, should things head south, but Iím getting the sense it would be well worth it.

The legal advice I got today was via tge employee assistance scheme and came from a lawyer, but they canít represent me.
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Old 10.03.2020, 20:13
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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The OP was certainly not Grossly Negligent, only negligent so should be covered regardless. For example gross negligence would be crashing a car whilst drunk, rather than causing the same accident whilst sober.
I'm not saying he was grossly negligent, I was stating that due to this extra module it does not matter if he was or not and thus a ny discussion about if he was or not is useless.
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Old 24.03.2020, 21:42
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

Having followed up on this with my insurers after having had my cover reviewed - Basically, one party (my home insurers) is telling me Iím not covered or indeed at fault because what happened was caused by an act of God and hence couldnít have been expected, and the other (The ECA) that Iím not covered because it what happened was predictable and I should have taken necessary precautions, and thus was my fault.

In the meantime, I have the owner of the vineyard wanting to present me (or someone) with a big fat bill.

What next? This feels like Groundhog Day.

From my insurers

After examining the entire file, it is important to emphasize that in civil liability, it is important for the claimant to prove the fault of the author. However, the latter is liable to be released from liability if he proves either force majeure, the fault of a third party or that of the victim.

Information taken from the meteorological service, it appears that on the day and at the time of the event, the wind was blowing beyond 75km / h; which means that we are in the presence of a natural event, for which our insured cannot be held responsible.

In other words, he does not have to bear the damage caused to Mr. xxx, who must simply declare the event to his insurance concerned, with the ECA.

In view of the above, I close the file and remain at your disposal for any further information.


From the ECA

On February 12, 2020, you told us about wind damage.

Within the meaning of the Law of 17 November 1952 concerning the insurance of buildings and furniture against fire and natural elements (LAIEN), our Establishment covers damage caused by natural elements.

They are defined as a natural, sudden and unpredictable action of extraordinary violence, which cannot be prevented by reasonable measures of precaution.

According to article 10 paragraph 1 figure 6 (LAIEN), damage caused by natural elements to all insured property affected by omission of precautionary measures required by the circumstances is excluded from insurance cover.

In the present case, in view of the winter season, this trampoline should have been placed under cover, with the jump mat and safety net.

Indeed, the metal structure of these elements has no wind resistance and is not likely to fly away in a completely uncontrolled manner.

In view of the above, the damage cannot therefore be covered. We draw your attention to the fact that it is the responsibility of each insured person to take all necessary precautions to avoid damage to their property.
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  #96  
Old 25.03.2020, 06:07
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

Suggestion: Contact the insurance ombudsman
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Old 25.03.2020, 07:38
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Re: Garden damage - responsibility?

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Having followed up on this with my insurers after having had my cover reviewed - Basically, one party (my home insurers) is telling me Iím not covered or indeed at fault because what happened was caused by an act of God and hence couldnít have been expected, and the other (The ECA) that Iím not covered because it what happened was predictable and I should have taken necessary precautions, and thus was my fault.

In the meantime, I have the owner of the vineyard wanting to present me (or someone) with a big fat bill.

What next? This feels like Groundhog Day.

From my insurers

After examining the entire file, it is important to emphasize that in civil liability, it is important for the claimant to prove the fault of the author. However, the latter is liable to be released from liability if he proves either force majeure, the fault of a third party or that of the victim.

Information taken from the meteorological service, it appears that on the day and at the time of the event, the wind was blowing beyond 75km / h; which means that we are in the presence of a natural event, for which our insured cannot be held responsible.

In other words, he does not have to bear the damage caused to Mr. xxx, who must simply declare the event to his insurance concerned, with the ECA.

In view of the above, I close the file and remain at your disposal for any further information.


From the ECA

On February 12, 2020, you told us about wind damage.

Within the meaning of the Law of 17 November 1952 concerning the insurance of buildings and furniture against fire and natural elements (LAIEN), our Establishment covers damage caused by natural elements.

They are defined as a natural, sudden and unpredictable action of extraordinary violence, which cannot be prevented by reasonable measures of precaution.

According to article 10 paragraph 1 figure 6 (LAIEN), damage caused by natural elements to all insured property affected by omission of precautionary measures required by the circumstances is excluded from insurance cover.

In the present case, in view of the winter season, this trampoline should have been placed under cover, with the jump mat and safety net.

Indeed, the metal structure of these elements has no wind resistance and is not likely to fly away in a completely uncontrolled manner.

In view of the above, the damage cannot therefore be covered. We draw your attention to the fact that it is the responsibility of each insured person to take all necessary precautions to avoid damage to their property.
It feels like Groundhog day because you keep trying to do the same thing to obtain a different result. Stop calling your insurers. Instead, send a registered letter to the vineyard owner stating the insurance information for your liability and ECA policies. It then becomes his/her responsibility to make the claim for what happened on their property and you have a legal record that you have done what is necessary to enable that to happen. Do not pay nor accept a bill from the vineyard owner. If received, send a registered letter reply refuting the charges and again directing him or her to your insurance.
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