Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08.06.2020, 20:40
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
backdating Tenant charges

hello,
hope everyone is staying safe.

when requesting for a review on charges by the tenant, how many years back is it legal to request for a back payment? we currently have set as fixed amount on top of rent.
Talking mainly about heating costs / water.

thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08.06.2020, 21:43
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,001
Groaned at 450 Times in 344 Posts
Thanked 22,285 Times in 11,533 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
hello,
hope everyone is staying safe.

when requesting for a review on charges by the tenant, how many years back is it legal to request for a back payment? we currently have set as fixed amount on top of rent.
Talking mainly about heating costs / water.

thank you.
5 years
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 09.06.2020, 11:05
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

thanks for the reply.

so both tenants and landlord have the right to backdate charges up to 5 years?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09.06.2020, 11:14
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
we currently have set as fixed amount on top of rent.
Pauschal (flat-rate) or Akonto (on account)? If "pauschal" there is nothing to backdate or change afterwards.

If "Akonto" then an annual break down of the actual charges has to be made. If no annual break down was made after five years neither party can claim anything from the other. If an annual break down was made and settled (dues or reminder paid) it is considered settled for good. During the mentioned five year limit tenant as well as landlord can request reimbursement or payment, respectively.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 09.06.2020, 12:38
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
Pauschal (flat-rate) or Akonto (on account)? If "pauschal" there is nothing to backdate or change afterwards.

If "Akonto" then an annual break down of the actual charges has to be made. If no annual break down was made after five years neither party can claim anything from the other. If an annual break down was made and settled (dues or reminder paid) it is considered settled for good. During the mentioned five year limit tenant as well as landlord can request reimbursement or payment, respectively.
Thanks for the info, I will check the old contract (very old) but I believe its set as a flat rate according to your explanation.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09.06.2020, 13:03
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lugano
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 17 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,316 Times in 601 Posts
LuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Yes, can confirm 5 years. However one of the problems faced by landlords is being able to collect after the tenant has gone and the deposit released. This can be for many reasons, such as the tenant having moved outside Switzerland, or a change of surname if they marry.

This is why it's som important to have a full and proper handover with correct readings etc.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank LuganoPirate for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 09.06.2020, 13:25
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
Yes, can confirm 5 years. However one of the problems faced by landlords is being able to collect after the tenant has gone and the deposit released. This can be for many reasons, such as the tenant having moved outside Switzerland, or a change of surname if they marry.

This is why it's som important to have a full and proper handover with correct readings etc.
I understand, this is a a current tenant who is asking for a revision of charges.

upon checking the contract although there is no mention of "pauschal" it does specify that the bills are to be paid monthly by bank transfers with rent - I guess that is essentially flat-rate.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09.06.2020, 13:31
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,001
Groaned at 450 Times in 344 Posts
Thanked 22,285 Times in 11,533 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
I understand, this is a a current tenant who is asking for a revision of charges.

upon checking the contract although there is no mention of "pauschal" it does specify that the bills are to be paid monthly by bank transfers with rent - I guess that is essentially flat-rate.
No, it's on account unless it says 'pauschal' which would likely only happen for a room, not a flat where you can waste as much heating & hot water as you like.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 09.06.2020, 13:35
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
No, it's on account unless it says 'pauschal' which would likely only happen for a room, not a flat where you can waste as much heating & hot water as you like.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09.06.2020, 13:52
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Dissent view, it could mean pauschal. Specially in older contracts it was not unusual to have pauschal charges. Also if there was never an annual bill then it became pauschal by usage.

Quote:
Ist von Akonto- oder Pauschalzahlungen auszugehen, wenn dies aus dem Mietvertrag nicht genau hervorgeht?

Zumeist wird in der Praxis von Akontozahlungen ausgegangen, weil das die üblichere Methode ist. Sollte der Mietvertrag jedoch derartig unklar formuliert sein, kann man den Standpunkt vertreten, dass von der für die Mieterin oder den Mieter günstigeren Lösung auszugehen ist. Hier könnte man sich auf die sogenannte Unklarheitsregel stützen, welche besagt, dass ein unklarer Vertrag zulasten derjenigen Partei auszulegen ist, die ihn formuliert hat.
https://www.orion.ch/de/Rechtsratgeb...r-Pauschal.php
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 09.06.2020, 14:10
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
Dissent view, it could mean pauschal. Specially in older contracts it was not unusual to have pauschal charges. Also if there was never an annual bill then it became pauschal by usage.


https://www.orion.ch/de/Rechtsratgeb...r-Pauschal.php
that's interesting.
this contract is from the 90s and after years of neglect on our side and consequently years of underpayment of bills we finally managed to update these costs a few years back in 2013. At the time we decided not to chase back those years of backdated bills in good faith and knowing the tenants family for so long.
and now we have been asked for this revision.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09.06.2020, 14:18
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
that's interesting.
this contract is from the 90s and after years of neglect on our side and consequently years of underpayment of bills we finally managed to update these costs a few years back in 2013. .
2013 The oil price was at $100 and above.

Since 2013 you never did an annual break down

First thing you should do is an annual breakdown for the last 5 years, just for yourself to see what the financial situation actually is.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 09.06.2020, 14:48
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
2013 The oil price was at $100 and above.

Since 2013 you never did an annual break down

First thing you should do is an annual breakdown for the last 5 years, just for yourself to see what the financial situation actually is.
Unfortunately that is the case.
We are currently going over the last few years breakdown.

currently trying to understand how "eau chaude" is calculated (as opposed to water which is our cost as per contract)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09.06.2020, 15:18
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,001
Groaned at 450 Times in 344 Posts
Thanked 22,285 Times in 11,533 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately that is the case.
We are currently going over the last few years breakdown.

currently trying to understand how "eau chaude" is calculated (as opposed to water which is our cost as per contract)
It will either be metered or as a percentage of the building, should be in your contract.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 09.06.2020, 16:17
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately that is the case.
We are currently going over the last few years breakdown.

currently trying to understand how "eau chaude" is calculated (as opposed to water which is our cost as per contract)
But you are the landlord, how can you not know such things?

Sorry, but I am completely stunned by such.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 09.06.2020, 16:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lugano
Posts: 1,094
Groaned at 17 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 1,316 Times in 601 Posts
LuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

I'm assuming it's an appartment, in which just ask the administration and they'll do the work for you. Usually each apartment is responsible for so many 1000's parts. It should be an easy calculation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank LuganoPirate for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 09.06.2020, 16:50
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
But you are the landlord, how can you not know such things?

Sorry, but I am completely stunned by such.
fair enough, that's on us.
it was the family home and split in two with a portion rented out way back when.
we started taking care of it after a family loss, however we are not in the country and don't fully understand the laws.

Quote:
View Post
I'm assuming it's an appartment, in which just ask the administration and they'll do the work for you. Usually each apartment is responsible for so many 1000's parts. It should be an easy calculation.
it's a house, split into two.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank inapickle for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 09.06.2020, 17:21
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,588
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,388 Times in 18,116 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

If both houses are the same size, then it should be split 50:50

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 09.06.2020, 20:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Quote:
View Post
If both houses are the same size, then it should be split 50:50

Tom
Yes and no.

It be very simple and easy, I prefer however something like this:

50% based on sqm. 50% based on amount of people living in it.

So if both are 100sqm but in one there is living one person, and in the other 4 persons than it be like 35% and 65% after calculation.

Surely one can play with percentages till satisfied, it also depends if warm water is used for heating of the home of not.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10.06.2020, 09:24
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: backdating Tenant charges

Question: Of those languages French, German, Italian. With which one are you most familiar with?

PS: Did you know that deepl.com gives amazing good translations?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Billag Registration / Backdating? vostok4 TV/internet/telephone 17 22.05.2018 11:00
Billag Backdating - Backdated Notlocal Lady TV/internet/telephone 3 21.07.2017 10:03
which bank charges the least bank charges for new account dreamcatcher Finance/banking/taxation 6 06.12.2011 11:36
tenant agreement Guest Housing in general 4 30.09.2010 23:10
Asking tenant to vacate BMW Housing in general 3 03.06.2008 13:52


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0