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Old 02.07.2020, 10:00
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Unpleasant handover

Dear EFers, I need to pick your brain on an issue with my rental management company.

I just moved out last Monday and did the handover via a friend on my behalf since I am travelling for work finally.

There was a set of jalousie on the windows since I moved in and during my own apartment acceptance, I was never told that they are not an original part of the windows and they really look like a part of it.

During handover last Monday, the management company representative mentioned that its my responsibility to take them down, which took me by surprise since I was never told that they are not a part of original window instalment - they really look that way - and I did not accept it.

I don't think it is fair but I have no upper hand, legally, I believe.

Now they say that they will have it removed professionally and will send me the bill. Which means that I need to pay for something I never installed and will face a bill which I cannot control the cost.

Any advice you can give? I have already asked help from my legal insurance, not sure if they can help, since during my own acceptance, this instalment was not mentioned and on the papers, it looks like i have them installed :-) this is very unfair.

Thanks for your comments in advance and have a great day

B
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Old 02.07.2020, 10:20
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Re: Unpleasant handover

Reply that they were part of the apartment when you took it over and you returned the apartment in the very same condition as received as it was your contractual obligation. It is there jalousie which you paid rent for and you will object any bill for removing there very own installations.
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Old 02.07.2020, 10:52
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Reply that they were part of the apartment when you took it over and you returned the apartment in the very same condition as received as it was your contractual obligation. It is there jalousie which you paid rent for and you will object any bill for removing there very own installations.
But that is not how it works.
Installation done by pre-tenants can be taken over but then the responsibility for it not being original is taken over too. Including paintwork, walls ... what ever.
So yes, OP needs to take it down if not wanted by the Nachmieter. Try to do it yourself though - I once had to pay Fr. 5.00 to the landlord to unscrew a hook off the ceiling. Not that it killed me but seriously`
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Old 02.07.2020, 10:56
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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But that is not how it works.
Installation done by pre-tenants can be taken over but then the responsibility for it not being original is taken over too. Including paintwork, walls ... what ever.
Such things are explicitly listed on the handover protocol. The responsiplity can not be silently transferred. If it is not listed as a thing you explicitly took over, and it was there at handover time it is part of the apartment and belongs to the owner.
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Old 02.07.2020, 10:57
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Re: Unpleasant handover

Next time when you accept an apartment for rental make sure to ask the rental agency that they will accept it if you give it back in the same condition... i had the previous people in my place take out the dishwasher as it was a non standard item and I do dishes by hand anyway. I didn't want the responsibility to have to remove previous people's crap. My relocation agent warned me for this...

Also avoid the Livit agency as they have a bad reputation with this regard.
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Old 02.07.2020, 11:00
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Next time when you accept an apartment for rental make sure to ask the rental agency that they will accept it if you give it back in the same condition...
This is already the law. It is the other way around. The landlord must state which parts must be returned in a different condition than it was when you took over the flat.

Better would be to take pictures at initial handover. Than you can refer back to them and proof it was actually there and is not listed on the protocol as an item which has to be reverted.
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Old 02.07.2020, 11:14
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Re: Unpleasant handover

Question:
- did the OP take over the rent from a previous tenant as a "Nachmieter"? If yes, the condition of the apartment at the time the previous tenant entered into the lease would be relevant. In other words, if the previous tenant put in the jalousie it would still be the OP's responsibility to remove it.
- did the OP rent it directly, i.e. as a new renter? In which case the situation at the time when he entered the lease is relevant. The question is how to prove the situation at the time of entering the lease...
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Old 02.07.2020, 11:14
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Such things are explicitly listed on the handover protocol. The responsiplity can not be silently transferred. If it is not listed as a thing you explicitly took over, and it was there at handover time it is part of the apartment and belongs to the owner.
Agreed.
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Old 02.07.2020, 11:24
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Question:
- did the OP take over the rent from a previous tenant as a "Nachmieter"? If yes, the condition of the apartment at the time the previous tenant entered into the lease would be relevant. In other words, if the previous tenant put in the jalousie it would still be the OP's responsibility to remove it.
Any hard references (ASLOCA, HEV, Mieterverband) to support this view? As far as I know if a replacement moves in a complete "etat des lieux" is done. Otherwise the landlord has the problem as the replacement tenant only has to return the object in the condition it was when he moved in.
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Old 02.07.2020, 11:25
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Re: Unpleasant handover

And not unimportant, what did your friend sign for? Did he agree on your behalf that the blinds are your problem?

And when you accepted the home did you put down an autograph that there are no blinds or whatever upfront of the windows?
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Old 02.07.2020, 11:52
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No, he did not sign the protocol and when I moved in, the blinds were already there, I did not even notice them or thought that they could be an external installment since they look like a part of the window system. In my own handover protocol dated back to 2016, these blinds were not mentioned as far as the management company says, so it looks like I have them installed :-)
I know I am helpless, but the feeling of itís being unfair makes me sad

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Agreed.
it was there but not listed over the protocol
i just cannot prove that it was there and now the removal bill will fall on me :-)

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This is already the law. It is the other way around. The landlord must state which parts must be returned in a different condition than it was when you took over the flat.

Better would be to take pictures at initial handover. Than you can refer back to them and proof it was actually there and is not listed on the protocol as an item which has to be reverted.
i know, i should have taken a picture, but its too late now, since they are about to send me a huge bill for something i did not instal :-)

Last edited by 3Wishes; 02.07.2020 at 16:40. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 02.07.2020, 12:40
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Re: Unpleasant handover

Ask your friends and family if they have any pictures taken at your place around the time you moved in ... Also check your own phone.

It's a long shot but ...
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Old 02.07.2020, 12:42
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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No, he did not sign the protocol and when I moved in, the blinds were already there, I did not even notice them or thought that they could be an external installment since they look like a part of the window system. In my own handover protocol dated back to 2016, these blinds were not mentioned as far as the management company says, so it looks like I have them installed :-)
I know I am helpless, but the feeling of itís being unfair makes me sad
Any chance you still have data to contact the previous tenant who could declare that they installed them and that they were already there when you moved in?

(they are safe btw, all terms have passed long ago that could make them liable)
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Old 02.07.2020, 13:12
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Any chance you still have data to contact the previous tenant who could declare that they installed them and that they were already there when you moved in?

(they are safe btw, all terms have passed long ago that could make them liable)
Good idea, thanks
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Old 02.07.2020, 13:12
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Thanks
No, he did not sign the protocol and when I moved in, the blinds were already there, I did not even notice them or thought that they could be an external installment since they look like a part of the window system. In my own handover protocol dated back to 2016, these blinds were not mentioned as far as the management company says, so it looks like I have them installed :-)
Not every itsy bitsy tiny bit is listed on the handover protocol. Just think what is actually vs. what is actually there. Now think if you should remove everything else which is not specifically listed. That is properly a lot.

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I know I am helpless, but the feeling of itís being unfair makes me sad
You are not helpless but you must push back and turn the tables around.
I would start with my suggest reply. In addition mention Art. 267 Code of Obligations.

If they play stupid says that you are more than happy to remove them yourself and that you will also remove anything else which is not listed on the move-in handover protocol. If the shelves in the cupboards are not listed they must have been added by you. If the shower hose is not listed but only the shower head, it must have been added by you. If carpets are not listed they must have been added by you. If drain plugs are not listed they must have been added by you. If the skirt boards are not listed they must have been added by you. And so on. Be a bit obnoxious.
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Old 02.07.2020, 13:26
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Not every itsy bitsy tiny bit is listed on the handover protocol. Just think what is actually vs. what is actually there. Now think if you should remove everything else which is not specifically listed. That is properly a lot.



You are not helpless but you must push back and turn the tables around.
I would start with my suggest reply. In addition mention Art. 267 Code of Obligations.

If they play stupid says that you are more than happy to remove them yourself and that you will also remove anything else which is not listed on the move-in handover protocol. If the shelves in the cupboards are not listed they must have been added by you. If the shower hose is not listed but only the shower head, it must have been added by you. If carpets are not listed they must have been added by you. If drain plugs are not listed they must have been added by you. If the skirt boards are not listed they must have been added by you. And so on. Be a bit obnoxious.


I'd like to do this just for the fun of it.
But if you want to do it right, it should be "it must have been added by my pre-tenant".
You don't want to be asked for receipts and installation bills.


I got a box in the cellar with all the crap I replaced over the years. Including the toilet-seat I changed within the first 5 minutes. Gonna be fun to return all that.
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Old 02.07.2020, 15:44
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Re: Unpleasant handover

We obviated the handover problem by buying our flat.

Tom
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Old 02.07.2020, 16:48
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Not every itsy bitsy tiny bit is listed on the handover protocol. Just think what is actually vs. what is actually there. Now think if you should remove everything else which is not specifically listed. That is properly a lot.



You are not helpless but you must push back and turn the tables around.
I would start with my suggest reply. In addition mention Art. 267 Code of Obligations.

If they play stupid says that you are more than happy to remove them yourself and that you will also remove anything else which is not listed on the move-in handover protocol. If the shelves in the cupboards are not listed they must have been added by you. If the shower hose is not listed but only the shower head, it must have been added by you. If carpets are not listed they must have been added by you. If drain plugs are not listed they must have been added by you. If the skirt boards are not listed they must have been added by you. And so on. Be a bit obnoxious.
Just be careful that they don't take up on the offer and charge to remove all those items... a good way to get part of a renovation subsidized

Removal of drain plug #1: 0.5 hours (min 0.5 hour) @ 100 Fr./h: 50 Fr.
Travel time: 2 hours: 200 Fr.
...
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Old 02.07.2020, 18:16
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Re: Unpleasant handover

Be careful here. I know the Suisse Romande just donít get rhetorical questions. If you were to ask, while rolling your eyes, ďDo you want me to remove everything not listed?Ē they would miss the irony and think you are being serious.

No so sure about the Swiss Germans though.
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Old 02.07.2020, 19:27
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Re: Unpleasant handover

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Be careful here. I know the Suisse Romande just donít get rhetorical questions. If you were to ask, while rolling your eyes, ďDo you want me to remove everything not listed?Ē they would miss the irony and think you are being serious.

No so sure about the Swiss Germans though.
They're not good on irony either. But the Baslers do a nifty line in satire.
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