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Old 27.08.2020, 15:36
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Perhaps. A friend's daughter reported that her happiest, healthiest class-mates, in gymi, were those whose parents offered to support them in their learning, but also repeatedly reassured them that it's okay to drop out of gymasium, if the pressure becomes too great (they really do have to move rapidly through a great deal of material), and that it would be fine for them to return to secondary school, and then do an apprenticeship.

Some of them did just that. Some of them drew comfort from knowing they could if they wanted/needed to, and pushed through and completed gymi.
Plenty of University drop outs become billionaires, Steve Jobs (Apple) & Jim Jannard (Oakley) come to mind. It's intelligence & drive rather than a piece of paper that limits peoples success.
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Old 27.08.2020, 15:56
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Agree with the posts about swiss parents in general being less pushy with their kids than many other places.
Anecdotal evidence: last week on the radio they were discussing about some survey that shows that in many kantons, the majority of parents are holding back their kids from entering kindergarten. So the state or federal govt. are thinking whether they need to impose a max age and not just a minimum age.
This is a huge contrast to parents from other countries who think that they need to push their kids to start early if they are perceived to be smarter than average.

But of course, some parents are tactically doing this to ensure that their "older" child will have the advantage in the Gymni test. But the radio report reflects the thinking of parents in most kantons, i.e., let kids be kids and let them develop naturally.
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Old 27.08.2020, 16:30
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

We live on the Platinum Coast, the primary school my son attended, the parents will be in the reasonably well off young professionals demographic, so the parents are quite academically minded.

Of my son's 6th class, (60 kids across 3 classes), 30 attended the prep class for the gymi entrance exam, but of those, around 10 passed the gymi exam. So there it's about 15% of the year. I have no idea how many of those did not make it through the probationary semester at gymi.

The gymi exam is quite tough - the maths has stuff like simultaneous equations with 3 or more variables, which I only remember doing at A-level in the 80s. The gymi probation is also pretty stressful - testing is frequent and grade averages need to be maintained.

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Old 27.08.2020, 16:56
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Agree with the posts about swiss parents in general being less pushy with their kids than many other places. There is is just a discord between this and the gymi situation in Kanton Zürich; maybe something to do with money?
Is there a difference between the Langzeitgymi and Kurzzeitgymi?
I mean WRT attractiveness, prestige perhaps, and (perceived) need to push. Of course both award the Matura at the end.
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Of my son's 6th class, (60 kids across 3 classes), 30 attended the prep class for the gymi entrance exam, but of those, around 10 passed the gymi exam. So there it's about 15% of the year. I have no idea how many of those did not make it through the probationary semester at gymi.
Statistically, another 6 kids will join for the Kurzzeitgymnasium later on, lifting the total to ~25%.
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Old 27.08.2020, 17:05
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

The Swiss don't think that getting a degree in event management from the University of Upper Tooting in London is all that great. Most kids still do apprenticeships (even for such things as office work and hairdressing). There's no stigma attached to not having a degree.

And Swiss parents don't push their kids into academia when they're obviously not suited to it, although they'd encourage them to go to uni even if they haven't done so themselves, if it's the right thing to do. And it doesn't mean that kids who don't go to uni are in any way stupid.

Maybe this also explains why the yearly fees at uni in the UK are GBP 9000, (CHF 10,797.93 in today's money) while they're around CHF3000 in the most expensive country in the world.

Go figure.
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Old 27.08.2020, 17:17
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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That's a possibility. However the financial success is usually a consequence of some traits which might be inherited by the children, intelligence being one of them. The children have an increased chance in life without their parents gaming the system.
That however doesn't secure them knowing how to learn. Meta-learning is partially independent of intellect - you can know how to learn and why without inheriting high IQ. And succeed, of course. Some experts would even say "and that's why succeed".. Swiss school will quite often prove to smart but lax kids that being bright will not guarantee being ademically successful. I like that about here, everybody has to work for it, not just surf on talents. I also like the focus on learning a real trade. Otherwise, I agree with your comment and appreciate it.
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Old 27.08.2020, 17:46
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Plenty of University drop outs become billionaires, Steve Jobs (Apple) & Jim Jannard (Oakley) come to mind. It's intelligence & drive rather than a piece of paper that limits peoples success.
Many don't measure their success in terms of money but in terms of what's important to them - whether they enjoy their work, have the right balance between work and personal life, free time to pursue hobbies, live in a healthy environment etc etc . And some do consider that those pieces of paper are proof of their success...

You have the extremes and everything in between. Not everyone aspires to become the next Steve Jobs.
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Old 27.08.2020, 17:52
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Many don't measure their success in terms of money but in terms of what's important to them - whether they enjoy their work, have the right balance between work and personal life, etc etc . And some do consider that those pieces of paper are proof of their success.
Money gives security & the ability to tell your boss where to go, so you become the master rather than the slave. (OK some people pay to be slaves, but I digress )
I believe the right balance of work & personal life would be reversed, 2 days of work & 5 days for personal life. How anyone could think more than 50% of the week working could be 'the right balance' beats me.
Interestingly I don't remember anyone on their death bed wishing they had spent more of their life working.
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Old 27.08.2020, 18:52
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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That however doesn't secure them knowing how to learn. Meta-learning is partially independent of intellect - you can know how to learn and why without inheriting high IQ. And succeed, of course. Some experts would even say "and that's why succeed".. Swiss school will quite often prove to smart but lax kids that being bright will not guarantee being ademically successful. I like that about here, everybody has to work for it, not just surf on talents. I also like the focus on learning a real trade. Otherwise, I agree with your comment and appreciate it.
Intelligence is not necessarily high IQ. And anyway, IQ from a certain point is overrated. Nice to have, but without other traits it won't help you a lot.

A trade might be a good career, it depends on the trade. Much better than some useless degrees. A plumber might earn substantially more than someone with a social science degree and at the same time work less. Unfortunately this is not taught in school and most children don't have the chance to see it in their family. Instead they get the common and wrong advice - do what you like - resulting mostly in a useless trade or degree.
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Old 27.08.2020, 19:08
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Plenty of University drop outs become billionaires, Steve Jobs (Apple) & Jim Jannard (Oakley) come to mind. It's intelligence & drive rather than a piece of paper that limits peoples success.
Steve Jobs is the classic example of financial success does not necessarily correlate with success as a person. Lack of intelligence is not necessarily a hindrance to success financially and certainly not as a person.
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Old 27.08.2020, 19:16
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Steve Jobs is the classic example of financial success does not necessarily correlate with success as a person. Lack of intelligence is not necessarily a hindrance to success financially and certainly not as a person.
Why do you say he was not successful as a person? Whatever he touched turned to gold, being liked is not important as it's the preserve of arse lickers who never achieve anything other than creating report, useful as a 'financial advisor' for beers, but not much else
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Old 27.08.2020, 19:36
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Why do you say he was not successful as a person? Whatever he touched turned to gold, being liked is not important as it's the preserve of arse lickers who never achieve anything other than creating report, useful as a 'financial advisor' for beers, but not much else
Source:
https://www.biography.com/business-figure/steve-jobs

Wife and Children
Jobs and Laurene Powell married on March 18, 1991. The pair met in the early 1990s at Stanford business school, where Powell was an MBA student. They lived together in Palo Alto, California, with their three children: Reed, Erin, and Eve.

Jobs also fathered a daughter, Lisa, with girlfriend Chrisann Brennan in 1978, when he was 23. He denied paternity of his daughter in court documents, claiming he was sterile.

Lisa Brennan Jobs later wrote of her childhood and relationship with Jobs in her book Small Fry, published in 2018. In 1980, Lisa wrote, DNA tests revealed that she and Jobs were a match, and he was required to begin making paternity payments to her financially struggling mother. Jobs did not initiate a relationship with his daughter until she was 7 years old. When she was a teenager, Lisa came to live with her father.
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Old 27.08.2020, 19:53
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Money gives security & the ability to tell your boss where to go, so you become the master rather than the slave. .
Know quite a few who can afford "telling their boss where to go" in the knowledge that finding a new job is not a problem for them. The types who're constantly bothered by recruiters...

Money is good to have, however - not the only thing to take into consideration.

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Why do you say he was not successful as a person? Whatever he touched turned to gold, being liked is not important as it's the preserve of arse lickers who never achieve anything other than creating report, useful as a 'financial advisor' for beers, but not much else
We may have to agree to disagree on a looot of things......(nothing in particular about Steve Jobs, whom I also admired btw)

Last edited by greenmount; 27.08.2020 at 20:04.
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Old 27.08.2020, 20:19
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

While I agree that not everyone has to go to university and there is more to life than a degree, I can't help but think that what allowed me to leave my country and work abroad was exactly this: Having a degree in an area where there is a high demand. As an immigrant I am never sure if I or my children will forever live in Switzerland. If they do an apprenticeship in the post office or if they do a Kaufmannische Lehre (not sure if that is right phrase) can they move to another country and get a job? Will they struggle in a future where most jobs will disappear and job market will be even more competitive? Of course a hairdresser or a plumber will always have a job but there are apprenticeships in areas where jobs will be scarce in the future.

Does anyone else not think about this?
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Old 27.08.2020, 20:39
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

Yes. I think that, if at all possible, anyone who might want to or might have to emigrate should, finances permitting, try to acquire two qualifications, in different directions. I knew someone who was a newspaper editor in one country, but was able to emigrate by refreshing his electrician's licence.
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Old 27.08.2020, 21:00
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Yes. I think that, if at all possible, anyone who might want to or might have to emigrate should, finances permitting, try to acquire two qualifications, in different directions. I knew someone who was a newspaper editor in one country, but was able to emigrate by refreshing his electrician's licence.
I suspect if you work from 16 you could do better than worrying about 2 careers. By age 21 my earnings were twice my fathers, he had a degree in Law from St Johns College Cambridge, but not the balls to work for himself as a Barrister. He needed the security of a regular job, unlike his father.
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Old 27.08.2020, 21:48
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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While I agree that not everyone has to go to university and there is more to life than a degree, I can't help but think that what allowed me to leave my country and work abroad was exactly this: Having a degree in an area where there is a high demand. As an immigrant I am never sure if I or my children will forever live in Switzerland. If they do an apprenticeship in the post office or if they do a Kaufmannische Lehre (not sure if that is right phrase) can they move to another country and get a job? Will they struggle in a future where most jobs will disappear and job market will be even more competitive? Of course a hairdresser or a plumber will always have a job but there are apprenticeships in areas where jobs will be scarce in the future.

Does anyone else not think about this?
I have this dilemma too but I don't think the Swiss system cares about our anxieties. They'll probably be confronted themselves with some of these issues sooner or later and will adjust accordingly. As we speak - if you want gymi then uni etc you have to support your child if they're also willing and capable to make the effort. You may also want to consider private schools. There's no guarantee for anything though.

Last edited by greenmount; 27.08.2020 at 21:59.
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Old 27.08.2020, 21:56
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Why do you say he was not successful as a person? Whatever he touched turned to gold, being liked is not important as it's the preserve of arse lickers who never achieve anything other than creating report, useful as a 'financial advisor' for beers, but not much else
You just answered your own question.

Turning everything into gold shows that a person is a financial or business success. It says nothing about them as a person. But it seems that to you, wealth is the only measure of a person. A billion Indians are inconsequential because they earn (way) less than $5,000 p.a. I expect you write off almost all the inhabitants of Africa, too.

Compassion, understanding, humour, selflessness, action on behalf of others: these are some of the marks of success as a person.
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Old 27.08.2020, 21:59
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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I have this dilemma too but I don't think the Swiss system cares about our anxieties. They'll probably confront themselves some of these issues sooner or later and adjust accordingly. As we speak - if you want gymi then uni etc you have to support your child if they're also willing and capable to make the effort. You might also want to consider private schools. There's no guarantee for anything though.
I asked the question because most of the comments stated that one does not need a degree to find employment in Switzerland. Unfortunately in most other places in the world there are not that many jobs one has to try and stay ahead of the game and we do not know how the job market in CH will look like in 20 years' time. Also do not forget that, when the jobs get scarce, those with immigrant backgrounds will be at the bottom of the pecking order.

Last edited by DerDieDas; 27.08.2020 at 22:02. Reason: Last sentence didn't make sense.
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Old 27.08.2020, 22:41
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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You just answered your own question.

Turning everything into gold shows that a person is a financial or business success. It says nothing about them as a person. But it seems that to you, wealth is the only measure of a person. A billion Indians are inconsequential because they earn (way) less than $5,000 p.a. I expect you write off almost all the inhabitants of Africa, too.

Compassion, understanding, humour, selflessness, action on behalf of others: these are some of the marks of success as a person.
Success, its definition and whether it has been achieved, is a personal thing. Your definition is likely to entirely contradict somebody else's.

Of course, once the basic needs are met, wealth (as well as poverty) is a relative thing, people compare their own position or status to their peers, to the extent it's all that relevant to them. The 1bln Indians will compare to some of the other Indians; your wealth or mine or Putin's is just a number to them and utterly irrelevant.

Since people appear to think that Jobs was unsuccessful:
how do they know what his definition was? And what is theirs?
And what is missing, according to the latter, in his being a selfmade billionaire coupled with having a 25yr marriage with 3 children that lasted to his death? What's their definition of success?
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