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  #101  
Old 30.08.2020, 15:08
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Yes, but my foreign *degree* is what was transferable, not an apprenticeship. I hope the same for my children.
Same for me and OH with our uni degrees, and I certainly hope the same for my kids too. However, I do know that the Swiss system is different than the one where I come from, and they'll have other ways to achieve this goal. I don't think the Swiss or their system is responsible for my anxieties, hopes or plans. If they'll (kids) be ready for gymi, they'll get there, I have no doubts. In the worst case scenario, as OH, like many here, is set on gymi, they'll go to private schools (only if they too want it). But we still have some years ahead...

Last edited by greenmount; 30.08.2020 at 15:21.
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  #102  
Old 01.09.2020, 01:04
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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So, do I know about the Flynn effect? Yes, I do. I studied behavioural psychology and intelligence in one of my degrees and as I said, the Flynn effect is first-year undergraduate level. It's widely known. But I don't think that you understand what the effect is. This is apparent from your nonsensical statement that everyone within the 90–110 range of IQ today would have qualified for university a century ago. Among many other issues with this statement is that intelligence, and specifically IQ, with all of its faults, has never been the sole criterion (or even a criterion at all) for acceptance to university, and perhaps more so a century ago when social class and other factors entirely unrelated to intelligence were conclusive in determining admission to tertiary study. And suggesting that well over 80% of all people today could have entered university 100 years ago, when (as you noted) there has been no significant increase in intelligence by biological means, is clearly ludicrous, depending as it does on intelligence being the sole criterion for admission.

Moving now to my description of a century as "short term", it's entirely accurate in the context of human evolution—which is what you introduced with your comment about "biologically caused" increases in IQ.

Nett: increases in IQ do not necessarily equate to increases in intelligence. Or IQ is not an unfailingly accurate measure of intelligence.
It's very telling that you criticize my reading when it actually applies to you.

I said "qualified (based on IQ alone)", that's not the same as actually enter. The qualifier clearly implies that there are other criteria involved. What you twist that into is your problem alone, I take no responsibility for that.

I do acknowledge however that you agree that IQ score isn't the same as intelligence.

And yes, occasionally I do indeed enjoy having the last word.
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  #103  
Old 01.09.2020, 01:38
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

I liked the post from squeezethecroc.

I also always found a bit "unnatural" reading that a certain institution is setting a goal for how many people should have a degree by 2050 and similar plans.

I surely think that education should be of good quality and offered to the entired population; I also believe that everybody should have in principle the right to access high education.
What I'm not convinced of is if everybody should actually enroll in high education, and if the percentage of graduates alone would a good metric for a society (my gutt feeling: no and no).

One of the risks of trying to give a degree to everybody is that the average value of a degree and the average level of people will end up meeting in the middle. I think I've seen it happening in Italy, where not going to university has become kind of a stigma while at the same time a bachelor's degree will grant you access to almost nothing.
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  #104  
Old 01.09.2020, 08:30
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Or maybe we know we're not welcome here for life? An apprenticeship career might allow someone to make a living in Switzerland, but not necessarily in other countries. If my family goes back to Canada, I doubt any apprenticeship credentials are worth much. All standards are different. A degree from a university is universally recognised.
This is an issue. Obviously a swiss apprenticeship is not a good certificate for getting into tertiary education in Canada and elsewhere. Hence the number of expats sending their kids to private schools here. Whether the money would have been better spent catching up on needed qualifications when back in Canada is probably debatable on a case to case situation.
A bachelors degree from a university may be recognised but it has become so devalued.
However I personally know several swiss apprentices who have had great careers abroad because swiss apprentices in a number of fields are valued for the depth of their skills and also one swiss/new zealand family who came back to Switzerland specifically so that their kids could do a swiss apprenticeship. It so much depends on the individuals involved.
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  #105  
Old 01.09.2020, 09:18
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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However I personally know several swiss apprentices who have had great careers abroad because swiss apprentices in a number of fields are valued for the depth of their skills and also one swiss/new zealand family who came back to Switzerland specifically so that their kids could do a swiss apprenticeship. It so much depends on the individuals involved.
I know some too, but all of them had an established career already in Switzerland before going abroad, i.e., the good list of job experiences shown on the 1st page of the CV, and most of them were sent abroad in the first place by their Swiss company.

My concern (expressed in my previous post) is that these days the apprentices can't even get a look into a professional career because these positions are only advertised for university graduates, especially because the hiring managers have no clue about the swiss education system.
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  #106  
Old 01.09.2020, 09:31
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

My son did the KV with Berufsmatura. He was hired by an international company and has met many influential employers.

Once you've got your foot in, networking can progress your career as much as any degree.
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  #107  
Old 31.10.2020, 19:21
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

As a child with an immigrant background, you have fewer opportunities, your own parents may not be able to help you at school, there is a lack of social contacts, there is a lack of (positive) peer pressure.
At school you are either part of the x-percentile or not.
But you have to find a meaningful apprenticeship and this mainly requires a decent network, without this your child is more likely to be exposed to exploitation and as a child/youth you make wrong decisions here and there so a longer school time offers protection. In addition, the degree is also recognized outside Switzerland and offers a general education and promotes ambition.
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  #108  
Old 10.11.2020, 20:41
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

I don't want to start a new thread, but is there a website I could find the number of in-class hours per week kids to in Oberstufe (Bezirkschule/Gymnasium/...)? Basically the number of hours for 7th to 9th grades.

Thanks!
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  #109  
Old 10.11.2020, 21:19
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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I don't want to start a new thread, but is there a website I could find the number of in-class hours per week kids to in Oberstufe (Bezirkschule/Gymnasium/...)? Basically the number of hours for 7th to 9th grades.

Thanks!
Probably here
https://www.zh.ch/de/bildungsdirekti...ndarstufe.html

between 32 and 36 hours
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  #110  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:19
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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I'm sure you're right, in some countries. But this is not universally so.

...

architect with a Masters.
Well Architects are ed in this country, everyone makes more money than an architect, so your point is kind of invalid.
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  #111  
Old 11.11.2020, 13:36
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Probably here
https://www.zh.ch/de/bildungsdirekti...ndarstufe.html

between 32 and 36 hours
That would be lessons, not hours. A lesson is normally 45 minutes long.
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  #112  
Old 11.11.2020, 14:58
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

The reason I asked is because my kid's schedule is 41 hours/week, which also includes an elective of 3 lessons/week, so without the elective, 38. I count the hours like this:

school starts at 7:30 am
school ends at 5:15 pm
Total hours/day = 10

I just wanted to take the pulse and see if this is normal a normal load. Like I mentioned before, this is only at school time, then there's the homework hours at home, in addition to this schedule.
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  #113  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:05
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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That would be lessons, not hours. A lesson is normally 45 minutes long.
True. It's an error of translation from my part, but thank you for pointing that out. I am pretty sure everyone else figured out what I meant though.
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  #114  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:06
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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The reason I asked is because my kid's schedule is 41 hours/week, which also includes an elective of 3 lessons/week, so without the elective, 38. I count the hours like this:

school starts at 7:30 am
school ends at 5:15 pm
Total hours/day = 10

I just wanted to take the pulse and see if this is normal a normal load. Like I mentioned before, this is only at school time, then there's the homework hours at home, in addition to this schedule.
I don't understand your maths.

Total hours/day = 9.75
* 4.5 days (I assume no Wednesday PM) = 43.9 hours

But I assume they get the usual two hours for lunch --> -8 hours = 35.9 hours / week ?
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  #115  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:11
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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The reason I asked is because my kid's schedule is 41 hours/week, which also includes an elective of 3 lessons/week, so without the elective, 38. I count the hours like this:

school starts at 7:30 am
school ends at 5:15 pm
Total hours/day = 10

I just wanted to take the pulse and see if this is normal a normal load. Like I mentioned before, this is only at school time, then there's the homework hours at home, in addition to this schedule.

Including Wednesdays? That's a "short" day in all schools as far as I know. If the school ends at 5:15 every single day, it does seem like a lot.

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But I assume they get the usual two hours for lunch --> -8 hours = 35.9 hours / week ?
If we are to be pedantic, there probably aren't two full hours for lunch, it's one hour and 40 minutes. Of course, some might beg to differ.

Last edited by greenmount; 11.11.2020 at 15:26.
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  #116  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:24
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

Mon and Tue from 8:20 - 4:15 pm
Wed is a short day.
Th and Fri from 7:30 - 5:15 pm.


Most always they are let out late, so I round up to h:15.

Lunch is 1.5 h. As adults, we count a 40-hour work week as a 9-5, or 8-4,... We don't say: "Yeah, but lunch is one hour, so it isn't".

My Math is simplified to when school starts to when the school hours end for the day. I am simply asking because I wonder when kids have time for extracurriculars (we had to stop everything), doctor's appointments without missing school, and just life.
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  #117  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:29
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Mon and Tue from 8:20 - 4:15 pm
Wed is a short day.
Th and Fri from 7:30 - 5:15 pm.


Most always they are let out late, so I round up to h:15.

Lunch is 1.5 h. As adults, we count a 40-hour work week as a 9-5, or 8-4,... We don't say: "Yeah, but lunch is one hour, so it isn't".

My Math is simplified to when school starts to when the school hours end for the day. I am simply asking because I wonder when kids have time for extracurriculars (we had to stop everything), doctor's appointments without missing school, and just life.
You may count a 40h week as including lunch, but I don't think anyone else does!

Swiss 42h week normally means 0800-1730 with an hour for lunch not included but two 15 minute breaks included.
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  #118  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:42
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

That looks like a high school age load than obligatory schooling. Here most middle school obligatory schooling looks more like 8x45min - 4 days a week and 5x45min on Wedn. That would be 35 classes per week, each 45min. Which is not an adult work load. Class isn't 45min of full on constant drill, either - that wouldn't be efficient learning. Homework shouldn't be more than an hour of work, we were told as parents.

I saw a glimps of a documentary on TV last night about workload for kids. They mentioned diverse extracurriculars and that it is all together quite exhausting, yes.
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  #119  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:48
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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Lunch is 1.5 h. As adults, we count a 40-hour work week as a 9-5, or 8-4,... We don't say: "Yeah, but lunch is one hour, so it isn't".

My Math is simplified to when school starts to when the school hours end for the day. I am simply asking because I wonder when kids have time for extracurriculars (we had to stop everything), doctor's appointments without missing school, and just life.
I think they have time for extracurricular activities only in the primary school.

As for doctor's appointments without missing school. Sure, on Wednesdays and Saturday morning if the praxis is open. You really have to schedule everything well in advance, unless it's urgent.
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  #120  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:50
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Re: Does %of kids going to gymnasium indicate the quality of schools/village ?

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That looks like a high school age load than obligatory schooling. Here most middle school obligatory schooling looks more like 8x45min - 4 days a week and 5x45min on Wedn. That would be 35 classes per week, each 45min. Which is not an adult work load. Class isn't 45min of full on constant drill, either - that wouldn't be efficient learning. Homework shouldn't be more than an hour of work, we were told as parents.

I saw a glimps of a documentary on TV last night about workload for kids. They mentioned diverse extracurriculars and that it is all together quite exhausting, yes.
Having hired people from school, I can confirm most of them are not used to a normal work week

I'm not saying they should work 40+ hours at school though - learning is different, and the brain needs time to absorb, plus they need time to grow as individuals.
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