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Old 18.09.2020, 21:42
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Another thread about buying a house

I've spent the last several hours reading dozens of threads on buying a house and since I didn't see my situation, I'm starting a new thread. Sorry!

The house we visited is currently split into two flats. We'd have to spend money to make it back into one house because we need all the space. I'm not sure how the "currently 2 flats" would impact any Eigenmietwert. We don't have any idea how much the conversion would cost. There are other renovations needed, but we could move in and deal with them over time.

I've read on EF that it's a good idea to get a professional such as a "bauleiter" out to inspect the property and tell us what we're getting into before we make an offer. However this is apparently a one-shot bid. The agent said that they'll take bids until X date and after that the seller will make the choice. There won't be a second round of bids. The visit we already made is the only visit we'll get, as there are "many interested parties".

The agent also said that we have to first meet with the owner's bank to discuss mortgages. Only after that can we go to other banks. Threads on EF say normally we'd get a packet of info from the seller's agent that we could then use to shop around for mortgages. Of course that didn't happen. We apparently can't meet with the owner's bank until after an offer is accepted.

Given those factors, we have no idea where to come in with an offer. The house is priced fairly given the amount of work that needs to be done, so it's no shock there are many interested parties. But should we offer more, and if so how much more? She said we can send an email with the initial offer. Based on what I've read here, even that is non-binding as it's not signed in front of a notary.

I hesitate with the fact we can't shop around to see what our monthly costs would be. How can I offer X if I don't know what that means on a month-to-month basis?

Has anyone else encountered such a scenario?
- one bidding round only
- no info packet
- must speak to owner's bank first

Thanks for any insight and advice!
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Old 18.09.2020, 22:15
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

Can't you approach other banks generally, without specific details of this house (if that's not allowed, which you seem to be saying)?

Your question would be: given our budget that looks like this (spreadsheet), if we were to buy a house in this area (name it) or this area (name another, similar one), what purchase price could we afford, what would the extra charges be, and what would our monthly costs be?
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Old 18.09.2020, 22:18
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

You should already have a good idea of what the banks can lend you and what the interest rates should be. If not, get this done.

Then just bid on that basis. I'm assuming that the bid is subject to mutual acceptance with the bank for a mortgage.

It's a bit of a stupid process as any buyer would normally want you to come with financing secured. So it raises a red flag for me. Are they expecting you to take over an existing mortgage at an unfavourable rate?
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Old 18.09.2020, 22:57
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

All I can add is in your specific situation I wouldn’t worry about the mortgage specifics right now. We worked with a third party to find the best deal (RealAdvisor), one large-but-not-mega Swiss bank could only offer us 1.4% interest whilst one mega Swiss bank could offer us 0.97%. If you know where you fall on the standard Swiss 5% calculation, you know where you can make an offer and you can be sure you will find a good mortgage after. ImmoScout24, UBS and other such places have online calculators if you need to look at what price range you can afford from the bank’s perspective.

I agree that it seems a bit shady. We were always asked to come with our offer already approved. I agree that it might be a situation where they want you to take over the mortgage. Or, simply they’re trying their luck to see how high someone is willing to go. That can backfire as any bid would be pending bank agreement, so if the prospective buyer can’t get approved, the seller has lost possibly weeks.
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Old 18.09.2020, 23:03
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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Can't you approach other banks generally, without specific details of this house (if that's not allowed, which you seem to be saying)?

Your question would be: given our budget that looks like this (spreadsheet), if we were to buy a house in this area (name it) or this area (name another, similar one), what purchase price could we afford, what would the extra charges be, and what would our monthly costs be?
Thanks, I guess we could take what we got from the website, which we luckily saved before they took down the listing due to so much interest. That might be enough info for the banks.

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You should already have a good idea of what the banks can lend you and what the interest rates should be. If not, get this done.

Then just bid on that basis. I'm assuming that the bid is subject to mutual acceptance with the bank for a mortgage.

It's a bit of a stupid process as any buyer would normally want you to come with financing secured. So it raises a red flag for me. Are they expecting you to take over an existing mortgage at an unfavourable rate?
Thanks, we also thought they'd want financing secured. The agent didn't mention taking over a mortgage, she said it had been in the family for years and the last son standing wants a quick sale. But that might make sense.

We can afford both the down payment and a mortgage at the current interest rates so I don't think qualifying is a problem. My bigger concerns are over additional costs, particularly renovations over time, and not having any clue how much those would be without having an inspection. Maybe the financial hit from renovations means it's NOT such a great deal after all.

I'd like to make a realistic budget, and from all the posts I've seen the "nebenkosten" after you buy an older house can add up well past the estimates you find online.

And of course since it's a one-shot bid, I don't want to overbid and get it only to find we should have bid far less! Of course the agent says there's lots of interest. It's his job!

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All I can add is in your specific situation I wouldn’t worry about the mortgage specifics right now. We worked with a third party to find the best deal (RealAdvisor), one large-but-not-mega Swiss bank could only offer us 1.4% interest whilst one mega Swiss bank could offer us 0.97%. If you know where you fall on the standard Swiss 5% calculation, you know where you can make an offer and you can be sure you will find a good mortgage after. ImmoScout24, UBS and other such places have online calculators if you need to look at what price range you can afford from the bank’s perspective.

I agree that it seems a bit shady. We were always asked to come with our offer already approved. I agree that it might be a situation where they want you to take over the mortgage. Or, simply they’re trying their luck to see how high someone is willing to go. That can backfire as any bid would be pending bank agreement, so if the prospective buyer can’t get approved, the seller has lost possibly weeks.
Thanks, I know we can meet the 5% rule but maybe dialing it down further will help when approaching banks. Do banks charge for making a mortgage calculation offer?

I suspected it was the latter scenario when the agent said "it's a one-time bid, so think carefully at what price you would say 'I could have afforded that and would have paid it but I missed out!'"
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Old 19.09.2020, 00:20
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

Is it possible (and if so, would it be wise, or not) to make an offer subject to a building inspection?
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Old 19.09.2020, 07:11
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

There are a few red flags in this situation but it is for you to analyse the risk vs return scenario. Some of the flags just sounds like another lazy real estate agent with a desirable property.

There is not a lot of consumer protection here especially in real estate so anything goes if you can get some punter to agree to your terms. However two can play this game, in any offer on property there are two 'get out of jail free 'clauses you should include in your offer. First, who is making the offer, 3Wishes and/or nominees, this allows you to change the purchaser before transfer without cost (providing you can find someone in time for the agreed purchase price). Second, subject to finance, I would always include this (the seller may not accept this which is another matter) , it is not that hard to 'fail to get finance' if you need to get out of the contract. For example, offering the bank only 19% deposit normally works so you escape the contract with failed finance!

One other rare and unique thing here is some sellers want their property to go to the right family rather than the highest offer so including a letter and family photo can help. We were lucky to buy our house here quite reasonably because this was a critical part of the sale.
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Old 19.09.2020, 08:14
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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...

One other rare and unique thing here is some sellers want their property to go to the right family rather than the highest offer so including a letter and family photo can help. We were lucky to buy our house here quite reasonably because this was a critical part of the sale.
It is amazing that this still happens in this money-driven world...
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Old 19.09.2020, 08:36
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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It is amazing that this still happens in this money-driven world...
The Swiss often regard their homes as almost holy and feel a responsibility to their neighbours that the right people buy it - and that the buyers or nice people who would fit in that neighbourhood.

Other don‘t and take the highest bidder...
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Old 19.09.2020, 08:42
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

@3Wishes:

I would be very inclined to walk away from this. Don‘t for get that you are the customer!

The seller‘s bank should have nothing to do with it and it sounds very much that they want you to take over the seller‘s mortgage. Ending a mortgage early can be an expensive business.

Don‘t be intimidated by an agent‘s patter that there are lots of interested parties - you may well be the only one!
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Old 19.09.2020, 08:52
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

I would go to the local UBS or Credit Swiss if you are a customer.

They have a really good idea of property prices & costs plus the process. I did this with my -ex- partner and got a ton of information for free. She already had a good relationship with the personal banker at UBS so that helped.

The reason I am saying this is it may help you establish the "right offer price" in addition the existing lending might run out in say 2 years and then you have the option.

The conversion & refurbishment costs need to be financed and this can be done separately so there is a deal to be had with the bank.

The sellers don't need to know you are doing this by the way.
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Old 19.09.2020, 09:57
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

UBS have something called Regio Tool and if you can ask your banker to send you a PDF extract for the given commune, it will include all the possible data you can imagine for buying a property (price of land, apartments, businesses, ongoing constructions, wealth among population, how many swimming pools are registered etc etc) this will give you a ballpark what to expect in terms of price.

For the bank to do an official evaluation of a given property they need the ECA certificate (fire protection) and plans of the house with few photos. The ECA certificate needs to be provided by the owner.

I am 100% sure the owner will want to ditch you his mortgage and depending when he took it you could be paying twice the today's rate easily if the mortgage was taken in the last 5-6 years.

Is this property in Bern? If it is, I don't see how can one justify this behavior. Bern is far from a hotpot for property. I'd walk away the moment the agent doesn't give me the ECA certificate so my bank can give me an exact number on the house.

As for transformation and renovation...it could be from 50k to 300k depending what you want to do and how much you want to do. But it ads up quickly!

Changing the electricals might be neccesary, that's 10k for each 100m2 roughly, heating can be from 30k to 80k depending what you want to do or what you are obliged to do by the commune.

And if you got a stubborn tenant it could take years for him to leave the house!
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Old 19.09.2020, 11:42
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

The moment I would be told that I cant come back with an expert for a thorough inspection I would walk away. This especially since it is an old building - you buy what you see.
No guarantees given unless the seller willfully witheld known faults.
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Old 19.09.2020, 11:52
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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The moment I would be told that I cant come back with an expert for a thorough inspection I would walk away. This especially since it is an old building - you buy what you see.
No guarantees given unless the seller willfully witheld known faults.
That is simple you state offer is subject to survey; I have always put that in every property deal along with subject to valuation. Does not mean you can't do the deal, it just gives you the option to walk away from a bad deal.
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Old 19.09.2020, 14:10
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

Thanks for all the replies and things to consider! To answer a few of the points raised above:

We'll include wording that the offer is contingent upon financing and an inspection. The inspection would include seeing proof that the electricity is up to code and that the work the owner has already done was completed with proper permits. Anything else to include in the first letter?

I suppose we can be up front and simply ask the agent if the plan is for the buyer to take over the mortgage. In fact, why can't we contact the owner's bank now. We know what bank it is, and how would the agent actually stop us from talking to them or even know we did?

I thought about writing a personal letter to the owner, as Mr Wishes has a huge nostalgic attachment to this house. It's a stone's throw from where he spent summers with his grandparents. I don't know if the owner cares, but if he is one of those traditional Swiss who wants a home to go to the right people, a personal note might sway him in our favor. Is it acceptable to send him a separate letter from the agent, or would that be poor form?

We know there are at least three interested parties. We arrived early for our appointment, expecting to have a look around the outside while waiting for the agent. There was already another family walking around with the agent. As we were leaving, another family pulled in. The agent said there were appointments every 30 minutes for the whole morning.

Thanks for the suggestions to contact UBS for more info and help. Mr Wishes has an account with them and a good relationship with his banker.

Two things we won't have to deal with are tenants or the heating system. The owner lives there now, and as he's older he wants out before winter. The heating system was replaced within the last 5 years.
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Old 19.09.2020, 14:31
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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I thought about writing a personal letter to the owner, as Mr Wishes has a huge nostalgic attachment to this house. It's a stone's throw from where he spent summers with his grandparents. I don't know if the owner cares, but if he is one of those traditional Swiss who wants a home to go to the right people, a personal note might sway him in our favor. Is it acceptable to send him a separate letter from the agent, or would that be poor form?
I would say do this, include it as part of the handwritten offer! You can also state that you would be willing to meet the owner in person if he so wishes.
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Old 19.09.2020, 18:34
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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Two things we won't have to deal with are tenants or the heating system. The owner lives there now, and as he's older he wants out before winter. The heating system was replaced within the last 5 years.
My last reply was short because I was running out the door to go swimming with my daughter but just wanted to add.

The part you wrote there is the persons pain point, if you focus on that and address that and bring him the solution(s) you have a better than even change of securing it.

I would add in the letter that you can and want to move fast (win for him, that is what he wants). Also depending on his moral compass here is the amount we think it is worth; however we are will to match and reasonable offer by other parties. The property is important to us because my husband ... etc ... etc..

I would also add that if there are any other concerns we are will to address those quickly & more than willing to meeting him in person too.

If he wants a quick sale at the price you offer and to someone who cares about the neighbourhood then you win. If he wants the best offer but to someone who care then you win.

I am writing this rapidly but I think you get the idea of the theme.
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Old 20.09.2020, 01:27
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

This sounds like a situation to walk away from...fast.
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Old 20.09.2020, 11:07
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

Too little transparency, too many things you can't figure out and which can potentially cost you much more in the future. Not weird for CH, considering it's a seller's market. But still, you can always find something better.

My advice is to talk with your bank and ask for their advice. They'll have their own evaluation of the property anyway and won't accept every price the current owner is asking. Their interest is not to finance an over-inflated appraisal. At least this is what our consultant told us - the moment we find something we like we come to them first.

Last edited by greenmount; 20.09.2020 at 11:25.
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Old 20.09.2020, 11:33
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Re: Another thread about buying a house

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My advice is to talk with your bank and ask for their advice. They'll have their own evaluation of the property anyway and won't accept every price the current owner is asking. Their interest is not to finance an over-inflated appraisal. At least this is what our consultant told us - the moment we find something we like we come to them first.
Exactly.

The bank wants to know and will do their best to help - after all, it's their money that will be financing the house!
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