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Old 27.11.2020, 23:00
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Electrical fixes at home and insurance

Hey!

I'm wondering something that could be really stupid or could be really important.

We recently starting renting an apartment in Zürich. It was recently renovated, but for some reason they left from old T12 outlets around. We are thinking on changing them for T13 since they are safer, specially taken into account that we have a 1yo around.

Anyhow… I'm thinking to do the job myself, since it's not really complicated on my opinion.

Now the question regarding insurance…

We have, of course, liability insurance. However, if something happens on one of those sockets and it causes a damage in the apartment how well covered am I taking into account that I'm not a certified electrician? I'm covered against gross negligence too.

Am I going too far on my thinking?

PS/ I'm specially thinking this since most probably I'm going to notify my landlord about the changes. First, just in case they want to foot the bill on the materials and second because I think I'm legally required to notify this kind of changes on the apartment.
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Old 27.11.2020, 23:23
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Should I notify a change of sockets?

Hey!

We just started renting an apartment in Zürich. It was recently renovated, around 2017, but they left some T12 sockets that we want to change for T13. Specially taking into account that we have a 1yo and they are safer and easier to baby proof.

I'm thinking to do the electrical work myself, since it seems really easy, but since I'm not a certified electrician I don't know if that pose a problem, specially for the landlord and my insurance.

Thanks
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Old 27.11.2020, 23:56
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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Hey!

We just started renting an apartment in Zürich. It was recently renovated, around 2017, but they left some T12 sockets that we want to change for T13. Specially taking into account that we have a 1yo and they are safer and easier to baby proof.

I'm thinking to do the electrical work myself, since it seems really easy, but since I'm not a certified electrician I don't know if that pose a problem, specially for the landlord and my insurance.

Thanks
Easiest ask the landlord. Best way to be sure and in agreement.

I used to replace these things myself (in rental flats) but times have changed a lot.

Why two separate threads on this?
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Old 28.11.2020, 05:02
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

Quote:
T12 sockets
These are, most likely, T11 (2-phase socket). T12 is a 3-phase plug.


It is in general ill-advised to alter any electrics in a rental apartment without a permission from the landlord and without a proper certification from local authorities. Even with an experience electrics somewhere else, your work may fail to meet CH standards - it is unlikely thee case for a simple sockets replacement, but still the ground connectivity, mixed metals, gauge selection etc. may turn into a silly mistake.


Changing power sockets shouldn't cause any problem, if sanctioned by a landlord and performed by a certified electrician.


IRL, if you ask your landlord and support such request with a proper motivation (kids usually work good), it will likely allow such change, if performed by a certified electrician or your house maintenance guy.


If you still decide to do it at your own risk, be prepared to restore the initial state of things.
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Old 28.11.2020, 09:22
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

Just to clear up any questions about what the type numbers refer to:
https://www.esti.admin.ch/inhalte/pd...e-fr-it-en.pdf

T13 may require a deeper mounting box which could mean cutting into concrete.
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Old 28.11.2020, 09:28
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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These are, most likely, T11 (2-phase socket). T12 is a 3-phase plug.


It is in general ill-advised to alter any electrics in a rental apartment without a permission from the landlord and without a proper certification from local authorities. Even with an experience electrics somewhere else, your work may fail to meet CH standards - it is unlikely thee case for a simple sockets replacement, but still the ground connectivity, mixed metals, gauge selection etc. may turn into a silly mistake.


Changing power sockets shouldn't cause any problem, if sanctioned by a landlord and performed by a certified electrician.


IRL, if you ask your landlord and support such request with a proper motivation (kids usually work good), it will likely allow such change, if performed by a certified electrician or your house maintenance guy.


If you still decide to do it at your own risk, be prepared to restore the initial state of things.
T12 isn't 3 phase! A complete list:

- T11 = 10A two pin earth (like a shaver socket)
- T12 = 10A without recess
- T13 = 10A with recess
- T15 = 16A with recess
- T23 = 10A three phase
- T25 = 16A three phase

The regulations say that simple changes like this may be performed by the owner of a (non-commercial) property without requiring an electrician.

Whether a tenant can do this is another question - the landlord is responsible for the safety of the electrical wiring, so legally probably not. On the other hand if you put it back to the original state they would have no reason to complain, so I think I'd probably do it in your situation.
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Old 28.11.2020, 09:46
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

You could also use these instead to make the best of the existing situation:
https://www.ikea.com/ch/de/p/patrull...eiss-90191547/

But I guess the bigger risk is something like a floating lead for a laptop power supply (or other portable mains powered equipment) the end of which, a small child may put in the mouth.

Usually, mains circuits are protected against leakage to earth but, in some cases such as above, that may not help.
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Old 28.11.2020, 10:20
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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It is in general ill-advised to alter any electrics in a rental apartment without a permission from the landlord and without a proper certification from local authorities. Even with an experience electrics somewhere else, your work may fail to meet CH standards - it is unlikely thee case for a simple sockets replacement, but still the ground connectivity, mixed metals, gauge selection etc. may turn into a silly mistake.
Nonsense.

A socket is a socket (assuming it is Swiss approved, which all sold in CH are), and anyone can replace them.

You only need to be a certified electrician for stuff that comes BEFORE the fuse-box.

Tom
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Old 28.11.2020, 10:45
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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Nonsense.

A socket is a socket (assuming it is Swiss approved, which all sold in CH are), and anyone can replace them.

You only need to be a certified electrician for stuff that comes BEFORE the fuse-box.

Tom
The first statement is true.

The second isn't complete - the regulations say that simple items such as fitting replacement or additional sockets, light fittings, switches in single phase operation is allowed, including adding or changing cable runs.

"Complex" work is not allowed, including 3-phase wiring.

I found a good page on this a couple of months ago but can't find it again

I think it also comes down to common sense; I redid a couple of 3-phase sockets, no- I just replaced the crappy broken old ones and put the new ones in a slightly different location, didn't even need new wires, I'm experienced doing electrics, so am I going to call an electrician? no
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Old 28.11.2020, 11:38
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

This Hornbach information document makes a clear statement on what work can only be undertaken by a qualified electrician. However, there is no reference to specific regulations, and it may be their own interpretation:

https://www.hornbach.ch/projekte/ele...lation-planen/


Bauhaus have something even more vague:

https://www.bauhaus.ch/de/content/an...erweitern.html
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Old 28.11.2020, 11:59
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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"Complex" work is not allowed, including 3-phase wiring.
It is if an certified electrician signs off on your work.

Did that last year when there was the RASI inspection, I did most of the stuff on the list myself, the electrician did about half of what he had estimated (mainly the ground fault breaker for the bathroom, and hard-wiring my 5m 3P extension cable what was plugged into a socket, he was pleased with my choice of 3P cable!)

Meanwhile, I switched phase on several sockets, swapped a t12 for a t13 in the bathroom and added a ground, and removed an unused heater hookup to the shower that was deemed unsafe.

Tom
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Old 28.11.2020, 13:05
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

I recently replaced a T12 3 sockets with a T13 box - one like this but with four sockets:



It was quite easy to do, no drilling required or anything. So it would be easy to put the T12's back before handover.
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Old 28.11.2020, 13:20
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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Just to clear up any questions about what the type numbers refer to:
https://www.esti.admin.ch/inhalte/pd...e-fr-it-en.pdf

T13 may require a deeper mounting box which could mean cutting into concrete.
Our house was built beginning of the 90-ies and they put T13 in bathroom and kitchen and T12 everywhere else.

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You could also use these instead to make the best of the existing situation:
https://www.ikea.com/ch/de/p/patrull...eiss-90191547/ .......
To use these, OP needs to install T13 first

They look pretty useful. Although I sure wonder what it is with kids these days and how come we all are alive?
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Old 28.11.2020, 14:06
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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To use these, OP needs to install T13 first

They look pretty useful. Although I sure wonder what it is with kids these days and how come we all are alive?
The socket covers work on T12 as well.

Obviously not as effective since it's easier to stick a flatblade under the side, but if your toddler is at that stage then you can probably explain the dangers.
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Old 28.11.2020, 16:20
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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To use these, OP needs to install T13 first

They look pretty useful. Although I sure wonder what it is with kids these days and how come we all are alive?
Obviously those not alive wouldn't be posting on this forum although there would appear to be some brain-dead people on the corona-virus threads so I guess anything's possible.
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Old 28.11.2020, 16:30
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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Obviously those not alive wouldn't be posting on this forum although there would appear to be some brain-dead people on the corona-virus threads so I guess anything's possible.
We had someone on here who said a T12 socket was 3-phase. I wouldn't much fancy 400V across three pins with no earth or neutral in my house, particularly on a badly shielded T12, but as you say anything is possible.
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Old 28.11.2020, 16:50
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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To use these, OP needs to install T13 first

They look pretty useful. Although I sure wonder what it is with kids these days and how come we all are alive?
They also work with T12 sockets. I remember those things from my days as a kid when we just had just had DRS, ARD, ZDF and with a bit of luck ORF on the TV but also four people on Tagesschau.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZdVybAKJtc

However, those which work on T12 socket might lead to a bit of a problem if used in a T13 socket as it might be Impossible to get them out.

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The second isn't complete - the regulations say that simple items such as fitting replacement or additional sockets, light fittings, switches in single phase operation is allowed, including adding or changing cable runs.
There is one additional condition: The circuit you are working on must be protected with an RCD (FI-Schalter). As usual and customary, here the actual regulation according to the law:
Art. 16 Abs. 2 NIV
Quote:
2 No installation permit is required for persons who:

a.
install individual sockets and switches in existing installations in living spaces occupied by themselves and in the associated ancillary rooms behind consumer circuit breakers on single-phase end-user circuits with residual current protection devices for a maximum rated tripping current of 30 mA;
b.
install and remove lighting fixtures and associated switches in the living spaces they occupy and in associated secondary rooms

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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It was quite easy to do, no drilling required or anything. So it would be easy to put the T12's back before handover.
Except for one small problem. Once the T13 socket is installed a T12 socket can non longer be legally mounted at that place.

But here a white lie you can use: Just state that that the T12 got broken and you got it fixed under the small repair rule. Accordingly it is now a T13. No harm, no problem.
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Old 28.11.2020, 22:07
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

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Easiest ask the landlord. Best way to be sure and in agreement.

Why two separate threads on this?
Because one of was thought to be to ask stuff from the landlord perspective and the other one from the insurance perspective. Perhaps it doesn't have sense.

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Just to clear up any questions about what the type numbers refer to:
https://www.esti.admin.ch/inhalte/pd...e-fr-it-en.pdf

T13 may require a deeper mounting box which could mean cutting into concrete.
I checked a couple of then and there was enough deep.

---

To all the rest, thanks a lot. It's been really insightful. I think I'm going to ask the landlord and see how it goes.
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Old 28.11.2020, 22:28
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

rental laws and customs say you are responsible for small repairs and AFAIK sockets fall under this.
So when in doubt, just destroy stuff.
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Old 29.11.2020, 00:15
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Re: Should I notify a change of sockets?

Small correction:
T15 10A 3P
T23 16A 1P

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T12 isn't 3 phase! A complete list:

- T11 = 10A two pin earth (like a shaver socket)
- T12 = 10A without recess
- T13 = 10A with recess
- T15 = 16A with recess
- T23 = 10A three phase
- T25 = 16A three phase

The regulations say that simple changes like this may be performed by the owner of a (non-commercial) property without requiring an electrician.

Whether a tenant can do this is another question - the landlord is responsible for the safety of the electrical wiring, so legally probably not. On the other hand if you put it back to the original state they would have no reason to complain, so I think I'd probably do it in your situation.
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