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  #61  
Old 31.05.2021, 08:07
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Agreed, I do it all myself, apart from installing a washing machine or two, or electrics in general. And those who are quite capable, don't generally ask on an internet Forum, do they?
They may do for a particular problem or query.

There was another thread on here where an experienced software developer acknowledged that if he had a problem, he would routinely look for a solution on an internet forum.

I wanted the pinout for a particular connector on PC motherboard yesterday as I was diagnosing a fault. Years ago I would have reached up for a hefty data book and leafed through that. Today I just looked on the internet. Much faster and more efficient in space and time.
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  #62  
Old 31.05.2021, 08:49
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Never saw a washing machine that needed 3 phase, they come with a regular plug even in CH where I have bought 2.
I have a washer and a dryer that are both three phase or two phase, depending on how you wire them. If you wire the washer in two phase it says the water heats up less quickly (which tbh with current low temperature washing probably makes no difference at all), no mention of any difference it makes to the dryer but I did it anyway since I have the right sockets.

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3 phase is very rare in domestic settings in the UK, unless your home is bigger than say 400m2 heated by electricity it won't be needed.
Indeed I've never seen it - but common in industrial settings, it's shame they don't have a neat equivalent of the T25 socket we have here.

Our lab at university had three phase cables all over the place, hence the need to have an adapter for normal office stuff.
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  #63  
Old 31.05.2021, 08:53
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Re: Washing machine installation

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If you want to paralelise the proces and not waiting until one finishes to start second one.
Like, if you're working whole day and don't have block of hours to babysit the machine. Or you don't want to spend your weekend on laundry alone.

That's my reason at least.
And communal laundry which has only one set of machines definitely wouldn't work for me.

Another thing, I don't see the reason for complaints if machines aren't broken. Mine spins in high frequencies (bass goes easier through the wall) and doesn't jump like crazy or something. I don't have mats either.

But ok, in some old buildings where you hear other person walking, I see how spinning cycle could be heard, but still, why would anyone complain if you're washing during regular hours allowed for noise production also known as living?

@JackieH: I've read somewhere that no one can forbid you to have a washing machine in your apartment, maybe on that tenant's association site or somewhere here on forum...
Why do you need to babysit a washing machine?

It has a pretty fixed time of operating, you just need to empty and reload it. They all (?) have some sort of delay option so you can fill it and have it finish when you want, and ours have an app that notifies us when the washing / drying is done.
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  #64  
Old 31.05.2021, 17:43
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Re: Washing machine installation

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… for dryers no return valves...
… for power step down transformer 3 phase...
Step down is not needed - it's wiring on board that would set it to standard 240V and than split of phase/NL/G against appliances would do - at the end of the day off the 3-phase system
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Old 31.05.2021, 19:53
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Re: Washing machine installation

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They may do for a particular problem or query.

There was another thread on here where an experienced software developer acknowledged that if he had a problem, he would routinely look for a solution on an internet forum.

I wanted the pinout for a particular connector on PC motherboard yesterday as I was diagnosing a fault. Years ago I would have reached up for a hefty data book and leafed through that. Today I just looked on the internet. Much faster and more efficient in space and time.

Yes, for some things, when you basically know what you are doing and have experience, that is great.
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  #66  
Old 31.05.2021, 20:19
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Re: Washing machine installation

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I've read somewhere that no one can forbid you to have a washing machine in your apartment, maybe on that tenant's association site or somewhere here on forum...
Making "structural changes to the rented flat" definitely requires permission from the landlord.

The reason that the issue of washing-machines involves tenants and landlords in disputes and possibly in Court, is probably similar to the arguments in this thread. Some say that installing a washing machine is no big deal, just plug the thing into electricity and water, and others say it is quite a big step, and as such enough of an alteration to count as a "sructural change to the rented flat". This difference in perspective has partly to do with a historical change, in that washing-machines were previously unusual so installing one could involve breaking down walls, and partly to do with the technical skills of the people who want to install one, and probably also partly to do with one's experiences, good and bad, with landlords.


The Tenants' Association of the German-speaking recommends getting permission, in writing, from the landlord.
https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet...r-wohnung.html
Brauche ich die Zustimmung des Vermieters, wenn ich in meiner Wohnung eine eigene Waschmaschine installieren will?
Das ist eine Streitfrage. Für bauliche Veränderungen an der Mietwohnung benötigen Sie gemäss Art. 260a OR die schriftliche Zustimmung des Vermieters.

Die Frage ist nun, ob man bei der Installation einer modernen Waschmaschine von einer baulichen Veränderung reden kann. Abänderungen an den Sanitäranlagen sind dazu heutzutage kaum mehr nötig.

Zu berücksichtigen sind aber auch der allenfalls erhöhte Wasserverbrauch, den andere Mieter über die Nebenkosten mitfinanzieren, und allfällige Lärmemissionen. Insofern kann die Installation einer eigenen Waschmaschine schon Auswirkungen auf die gesamte Liegenschaft haben.

Vorsichtshalber sollten Sie also die Zustimmung des Vermieters oder der Verwaltung einholen.

Wichtig ist auch, dass Sie über eine Haftpflichtversicherung verfügen, die bei einem allfälligen Wasserschaden aufkommen würde. Der Abschluss einer Privathaftpflichtversicherung ist aber ohnehin allen Leuten zu empfehlen.

Do I need permission from my landlord if I want to install my own washing machine in my flat?

This is a matter of dispute. According to Art. 260a OR, you need the written consent of the landlord for structural changes to the rented flat.

The question now is whether the installation of a modern washing machine can be considered a structural change. Modifications to the plumbing installations are hardly necessary nowadays.

However, one must also take into account the increased water consumption that other tenants may have to pay for via the service charges, and any noise emissions. In this respect, installing your own washing machine can have an impact on the entire property.

As a precaution, you should therefore obtain the consent of the landlord or the administration.

It is also important that you have liability insurance that would cover any water damage. However, taking out personal liability insurance is recommended for everyone anyway.
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:24
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Making "structural changes to the rented flat" definitely requires permission from the landlord.

The reason that the issue of washing-machines involves tenants and landlords in disputes and possibly in Court, is probably similar to the arguments in this thread. Some say that installing a washing machine is no big deal, just plug the thing into electricity and water, and others say it is quite a big step, and as such enough of an alteration to count as a "sructural change to the rented flat". This difference in perspective has partly to do with a historical change, in that washing-machines were previously unusual so installing one could involve breaking down walls, and partly to do with the technical skills of the people who want to install one, and probably also partly to do with one's experiences, good and bad, with landlords.


The Tenants' Association of the German-speaking recommends getting permission, in writing, from the landlord.
https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet...r-wohnung.html
Brauche ich die Zustimmung des Vermieters, wenn ich in meiner Wohnung eine eigene Waschmaschine installieren will?
Das ist eine Streitfrage. Für bauliche Veränderungen an der Mietwohnung benötigen Sie gemäss Art. 260a OR die schriftliche Zustimmung des Vermieters.

Die Frage ist nun, ob man bei der Installation einer modernen Waschmaschine von einer baulichen Veränderung reden kann. Abänderungen an den Sanitäranlagen sind dazu heutzutage kaum mehr nötig.

Zu berücksichtigen sind aber auch der allenfalls erhöhte Wasserverbrauch, den andere Mieter über die Nebenkosten mitfinanzieren, und allfällige Lärmemissionen. Insofern kann die Installation einer eigenen Waschmaschine schon Auswirkungen auf die gesamte Liegenschaft haben.

Vorsichtshalber sollten Sie also die Zustimmung des Vermieters oder der Verwaltung einholen.

Wichtig ist auch, dass Sie über eine Haftpflichtversicherung verfügen, die bei einem allfälligen Wasserschaden aufkommen würde. Der Abschluss einer Privathaftpflichtversicherung ist aber ohnehin allen Leuten zu empfehlen.

Do I need permission from my landlord if I want to install my own washing machine in my flat?

This is a matter of dispute. According to Art. 260a OR, you need the written consent of the landlord for structural changes to the rented flat.

The question now is whether the installation of a modern washing machine can be considered a structural change. Modifications to the plumbing installations are hardly necessary nowadays.

However, one must also take into account the increased water consumption that other tenants may have to pay for via the service charges, and any noise emissions. In this respect, installing your own washing machine can have an impact on the entire property.

As a precaution, you should therefore obtain the consent of the landlord or the administration.

It is also important that you have liability insurance that would cover any water damage. However, taking out personal liability insurance is recommended for everyone anyway.
Useful, thanks.

The part about water consumption doesn't make much sense though - it's fair to assume that the total amount of washing done will remain fairly similar, but will move from a communal machine to a private one. Probably the private one is newer and more efficient as well.
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  #68  
Old 31.05.2021, 20:25
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Yes, for some things, when you basically know what you are doing and have experience, that is great.
And if you don't, on a topic combining water and electricity, then just leave well alone!
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:27
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Making "structural changes to the rented flat" definitely requires permission from the landlord.

The reason that the issue of washing-machines involves tenants and landlords in disputes and possibly in Court, is probably similar to the arguments in this thread. Some say that installing a washing machine is no big deal, just plug the thing into electricity and water, and others say it is quite a big step, and as such enough of an alteration to count as a "sructural change to the rented flat". This difference in perspective has partly to do with a historical change, in that washing-machines were previously unusual so installing one could involve breaking down walls, and partly to do with the technical skills of the people who want to install one, and probably also partly to do with one's experiences, good and bad, with landlords.


The Tenants' Association of the German-speaking recommends getting permission, in writing, from the landlord.
https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet...r-wohnung.html
Brauche ich die Zustimmung des Vermieters, wenn ich in meiner Wohnung eine eigene Waschmaschine installieren will?
Das ist eine Streitfrage. Für bauliche Veränderungen an der Mietwohnung benötigen Sie gemäss Art. 260a OR die schriftliche Zustimmung des Vermieters.

Die Frage ist nun, ob man bei der Installation einer modernen Waschmaschine von einer baulichen Veränderung reden kann. Abänderungen an den Sanitäranlagen sind dazu heutzutage kaum mehr nötig.

Zu berücksichtigen sind aber auch der allenfalls erhöhte Wasserverbrauch, den andere Mieter über die Nebenkosten mitfinanzieren, und allfällige Lärmemissionen. Insofern kann die Installation einer eigenen Waschmaschine schon Auswirkungen auf die gesamte Liegenschaft haben.

Vorsichtshalber sollten Sie also die Zustimmung des Vermieters oder der Verwaltung einholen.

Wichtig ist auch, dass Sie über eine Haftpflichtversicherung verfügen, die bei einem allfälligen Wasserschaden aufkommen würde. Der Abschluss einer Privathaftpflichtversicherung ist aber ohnehin allen Leuten zu empfehlen.

Do I need permission from my landlord if I want to install my own washing machine in my flat?

This is a matter of dispute. According to Art. 260a OR, you need the written consent of the landlord for structural changes to the rented flat.

The question now is whether the installation of a modern washing machine can be considered a structural change. Modifications to the plumbing installations are hardly necessary nowadays.

However, one must also take into account the increased water consumption that other tenants may have to pay for via the service charges, and any noise emissions. In this respect, installing your own washing machine can have an impact on the entire property.

As a precaution, you should therefore obtain the consent of the landlord or the administration.

It is also important that you have liability insurance that would cover any water damage. However, taking out personal liability insurance is recommended for everyone anyway.
Just connect to the cold water tap & outflow into the toilet, absolutely no structural changes whatsoever. Being somewhat heath Robinson the chance of a leak is higher but far better than to do something that could be against the rules, you could not make up this nonsense
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And if you don't, on a topic combining water and electricity, then just leave well alone!
Actually amazing that the Swiss even use a washing machine without full training & a diploma. My Swiss ex had a 'housewives diploma', which covered such domestic matters
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:29
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Re: Washing machine installation

Here's more, from the site of a landlord (or agency) in Canton Vaud.

https://www.regieduboux.ch/quelles-s...inge-chez-moi/

...le locataire qui souhaite installer une machine à laver le linge se doit impérativement de solliciter préalablement l’autorisation écrite du bailleur. Afin d’être complet dans sa demande, il lui est en outre recommandé de préciser directement le nom de l’entreprise agréée qui sera en charge de cette installation et de joindre à sa demande une copie de sa police d’assurance ménage dégâts d’eaux.

... the tenant who wishes to install a washing machine must imperatively request prior written authorisation from the landlord. In order to be complete in his request, he is also recommended to specify directly the name of the approved company that will be in charge of this installation and to attach to his request a copy of his household water damage insurance policy.
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:33
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Re: Washing machine installation

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However, one must also take into account the increased water consumption that other tenants may have to pay for via the service charges, and any noise emissions. In this respect, installing your own washing machine can have an impact on the entire property.
Who writes this nonsense? A modern machine will use far less water than a ten or fifteen year old 'shared' machine.

If someone buys their own machine then the overall water consumption will drop.
If you do the sums (I did them for our last place which had unmetered shared water), then any difference will be in raps or a couple of francs a year.

As I wrote - who writes this nonsense?
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:35
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Who writes this nonsense? A modern machine will use far less water than a ten or fifteen year old 'shared' machine.

If someone buys their own machine then the overall water consumption will drop.
If you do the sums (I did them for our last place which had unmetered shared water), then any difference will be in raps or a couple of francs a year.

As I wrote - who writes this nonsense?
I quoted it from the Mieterverband, which is the Tenants' Association for the German-speaking cantons (link in my post above).
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  #73  
Old 31.05.2021, 20:38
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Re: Washing machine installation

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I quoted it from the Mieterverband, which is the Tenants' Association for the German-speaking cantons (link in my post above).

I know - but someone must have actually written it without having much knowledge of the subject.
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:38
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Re: Washing machine installation

I guess that the idea - historically - might have been that if one had one's own washing-machine, which was (and in many building still is) unusual, one might be tempted to wash much more, perhaps not only for one's own family. We have an ancient notice hanging up in the laundry which prohibits the tenants from taking in laundry from anyone else, to wash. This was, I am told, in case a washerwoman set up a business using the water for which all the tenants would be paying.

Even in this thread, we have Blacky who does 10 loads, while others do just 2 or 3. Perhaps that is to do with the size of the machines. But perhaps having to plan one's laundry times actually does cause one to want to wash less... I don't know about the psychology of it.
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Old 31.05.2021, 20:52
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Re: Washing machine installation

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I guess that the idea - historically - might have been that if one had one's own washing-machine, which was (and in many building still is) unusual, one might be tempted to wash much more, perhaps not only for one's own family. We have an ancient notice hanging up in the laundry which prohibits the tenants from taking in laundry from anyone else, to wash. This was, I am told, in case a washerwoman set up a business using the water for which all the tenants would be paying.

Even in this thread, we have Blacky who does 10 loads, while others do just 2 or 3. Perhaps that is to do with the size of the machines. But perhaps having to plan one's laundry times actually does cause one to want to wash less... I don't know about the psychology of it.
Even when I was single, I would run the washing machine most days, 10 loads a week as a couple or a family is nothing. I always thought Switzerland was one of the richest countries in the world, not a thirdworld backwater.
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Old 31.05.2021, 21:05
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Even in this thread, we have Blacky who does 10 loads, while others do just 2 or 3. Perhaps that is to do with the size of the machines. But perhaps having to plan one's laundry times actually does cause one to want to wash less... I don't know about the psychology of it.
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Even when I was single, I would run the washing machine most days, 10 loads a week as a couple or a family is nothing. I always thought Switzerland was one of the richest countries in the world, not a thirdworld backwater.
I recall an American colleague who would often use "Laundry day" as an excuse to not go out for beers after work, or indeed to take the afternoon off. Sure, it was only once every two weeks, but I never understood how he generated enough washing until I asked, and his daily routine included three sets of clothes every day, with an early morning set, then a shower before changing into work stuff (we were always business casual, so it's not like he was wearing a suit or anything) another shower and clean clothes after getting home. Sometimes another if he was going out of an evening.

Each set of part-worn clothes was put straight into the laundry hamper, no thought of re-using entered into the equation.

At the opposite end, I'll often wear an item two or three times if it's only for an hour or three - for example a shirt I put on fresh after an evening bath should be perfectly good for a second evening's wear, and clothes used for e.g. working on the house don't need to be clean every day, since they're going to get filthy immediately anyway. Obviously common sense applies.

I don't consider being economical with laundry to be a third-world type issue, rather I think that some folk are just plain wasteful, both of time and resources.
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Old 31.05.2021, 21:47
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Step down is not needed - it's wiring on board that would set it to standard 240V and than split of phase/NL/G against appliances would do - at the end of the day off the 3-phase system
…you asked for a balanced load, then I gave you the more efficient and cheapest solution...another solution will be to transform to DC current by a diode bridge and with inverter bringing to AC...of course what you mentioned is the easiest but not you asked for...
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Old 31.05.2021, 21:55
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Here's more, from the site of a landlord (or agency) in Canton Vaud.

https://www.regieduboux.ch/quelles-s...inge-chez-moi/

...le locataire qui souhaite installer une machine à laver le linge se doit impérativement de solliciter préalablement l’autorisation écrite du bailleur. Afin d’être complet dans sa demande, il lui est en outre recommandé de préciser directement le nom de l’entreprise agréée qui sera en charge de cette installation et de joindre à sa demande une copie de sa police d’assurance ménage dégâts d’eaux.

... the tenant who wishes to install a washing machine must imperatively request prior written authorisation from the landlord. In order to be complete in his request, he is also recommended to specify directly the name of the approved company that will be in charge of this installation and to attach to his request a copy of his household water damage insurance policy.

Same in Neuchâtel. In some C/Kantons it is highly recommended, as per Mietverband. As per Asloca, it is an obligation in Vaud and Neuchâtel- and perhaps in others too.
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Old 31.05.2021, 22:04
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Re: Washing machine installation

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Even in this thread, we have Blacky who does 10 loads, while others do just 2 or 3. Perhaps that is to do with the size of the machines. But perhaps having to plan one's laundry times actually does cause one to want to wash less... I don't know about the psychology of it.
Maybe some people have bigger families? Or do more sport? Or are less smelly?
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Old 31.05.2021, 23:01
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Re: Washing machine installation

LOL I didn't expect being judged as wasteful because I dare to wash my things. What a crazy forum this really is.

So, hear the details.

No, I cannot reuse, consider yourself lucky if you can.
If you don't trust me about reuse, I can give you my once worn just for a few hours T shirt and under shirt and feel free to wear it. If you don't drown in sweat and smell, let me know.

Anti perspirants don't work on me, 48h deodorants lose their mojo in like 10 hours tops if I'm not sweating, which is usually only when I'm sitting still, movements cause sweating (that includes moving laundry from wascher to dryer on top of it in a few squats).
Since I was teen my sweat has 'man odour', and at some point if I'd sweat, my bladder/kidney/something would become painful (they never found a cause, but peeing with sensation of being cut by razors isn't fun, dozen of antibiotics didn't solve it either, and even today, if I get my feet cold a bit, I have that 'feeling in the back'), only way to not reach that is to change clothes whenever they got wet.

That included changing them in the mid of the Iron Maiden concert once. And carrying spare clothes with me whenever I'm outside, usually two sets. Fun thing when you want to start a job.

Few years ago they removed my thyroid b/c of cancer they found and told me that my chronic sweating will cease with that - now it's worse than ever before. I can stand, make a few steps, stop, and will just pour for several minutes. Yes, I'm in medicine induced hyperthyroidism in order to ensure cancer is gone.

In summer, I shower after bed, since I sweat while sleeping (like bedsheets wet - then those get washed much more frequently), and then when I come home, since sweat is usually literally pouring down my face.
I even wear sweat headbands and I guess I look like a complete mess, buy hey, I'm alive.

Also, I have to wear cotton and similar near my skin. Poly tends to cook me on touch (cotton is heavier and takes more space in the machine). Some activewear I can stand, but not in shade - cold sweat and my kidneys still don't like each other.


So what I wash...
2x loads of towels
4x loads for bed stuff
1x load of pet stuff/rags
2x kitchen towels
this is usually bi-weekly

3-5x clothes weekly if I'm not working/going out, more if I'm working, summer is the worst, I have to carry spare tops and towels, and change + refresh in the toilet if I want to try to resemble normal human being and not snowwoman in the sun.
Especially 'funny' when I attempted being employed two summers ago. I even bought a kid's backpack with wheels to carry my laptop in attempt to lower the amount of sweating and the time needed to reset.

For me, every day is the towel day. Yes, I do carry towel on me, started again a few weeks ago as temperatures went up (Berlin). So amount of towel laundry will go up.

And I'm lazy to do the laundry. I don't have big numbers because I don't have anything better to do with my time, but because it just can't go down, only goes up with time and medical history. Ideally, I'd put everything at once in 10 machines, pick up once and I'm done for the week or two.

So washing when there's a several loads ready. I definitely don't wash anything more than it's needed. I LOLed seeing that comment for me. Couldn't be further from the truth.

But when you get white stripes of salt from sweat after one day wear, I believe no one from you here would wear that the other day (especially in public) even if the smell wasn't there, no matter how 'water economical' or judgmental towards others you are.

@newtoswitz: I was referring to communal machine where you have a time slot and you have to time everything to do your loads in the slot given, that's babysitting for me.
With machine in my flat, I tend to it when I'm nearby, so it really isn't a hassle nor exercise in organisation. I don't have to coordinate with anyone. Nor putting alarms.

And I prefer my household appliances stupid aka no internet for them.

I could imagine being ok with 3-4-5 communal machines available at once, but so far I've only seen 'we have one', and that + any form of scheduling just won't work for me, I refuse to have the laundry day
But glad to hear more so that I know what I have to insist on, eg before signing flat contract get permission to install one or two
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