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  #21  
Old 26.02.2021, 13:00
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

A concrete build cost about 5% less in this study by the federal government. It compares side-by-side the "same" house built new twice, one a wood structure the other concrete (foundations identical). The idea behind the undertaking was to learn how to promote wood builds because they have less environmental impact, so if it's biased it's more likely to be pro-wood than pro-concrete.

If the concrete parts are factory made there may be additional advantages, like lower cost, improved precision, less sources for errors, etc. Perhaps the same isnt' possible with wood, or very difficult, e.g. difficult to halve the large carrying beams in order to make the parts easy to transport to the building site, just a guess.

Wood comes with increased risk of harmful chemicals, formaldehyde for instance as it's relatively new around here again (don't ask me why we can't learn from current experience abroad). And I would expect that the wood will "work" more, change more at least over the first few years, which may cause cracks in plastering or create real problems.

Switzerland is home of Holderbank, which merged into LafargeHolcim with the french Lafarge perhaps a decade ago. At least outside of China they're the biggest producer of cement and concrete worldwide. It seems plausible that their lobbying has had its effect over time.
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  #22  
Old 26.02.2021, 13:27
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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Also, three years doesn't sound right. In my area they've built three apartment blocks, including basements, in less than a year.

Agree on this. We built three houses (each house with 3 floors, plus cellars and double or triple car garages) in 13 months here in CH. 13 months from the first time a digger touched the ground until the families moved in (therefore excluding all the planning and administrative work). Also the houses were built on a steep hill needing some "extra" digging and concrete reinforcements.
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Old 26.02.2021, 13:30
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

If you don't know it, I suggest you find out. All citizens in CH have a collection point to go to in case. Ours is 300 meters down the street.



And no, it is no longer a requirement to build a bunker under every house.
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  #24  
Old 26.02.2021, 14:54
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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And no, it is no longer a requirement to build a bunker under every house.
Do you have a link?

From the Ticino's site, it seems like this is still a requirement - or to pay money to the council so that they have space for you in a communal bunker:

I proprietari d’immobili sono tenuti a realizzare ed equipaggiare rifugi in tutti i nuovi edifici abitativi, negli istituti e negli ospedali (art. LPPC 46 Obbligo di costruire).
Se non viene realizzato il rifugio o se il fabbisogno di posti protetti nella zona di valutazione è già coperto, il proprietario dell'immobile deve versare dei contributi sostitutivi. I contributi sostitutivi vanno versati con l'inizio dei lavori di costruzione.

I proprietari di edifici abitativi, ospedali, case anziani e di cura, che non realizzano un rifugio obbligatorio ottenendo l’esonero, devono versare contributi sostitutivi.
Il versamento deve avvenire con l’inizio del cantiere.
Gli importi relativi ai contributi sostitutivi vengono fissati con risoluzione del Dipartimento delle istituzione e pubblicati sul Foglio Ufficiale.

https://www4.ti.ch/fileadmin/DI/SMPP...bbligatori.pdf
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Old 26.02.2021, 14:59
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete
You can't pour bricks, so the only alternative left is poured concrete
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  #26  
Old 26.02.2021, 15:23
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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Do you have a link?[/url]
https://www.ifrc.org/docs/IDRL/Laws/...n%20System.pdf
Should house owners not build a private shelter, they shall be obliged to pay compensation. This shall be used primarily to fund public shelters in the given municipality.

If the municipality already has the statutory number of shelters or if compensation payments cover the funding of said shelters, any remaining funds may be used for other protection & support measures.

Where the stipulated number of protective places has been reached, the cantons shall determine whether further shelters should be constructed and whether compensation payments should be charged


I'm guessing most cantons have sufficient shelters, as I have never heard of payments in lieu of not having a shelter
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  #27  
Old 26.02.2021, 15:30
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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I would go against the trend of saying they last.


Concrete lasts 50-75 years. Beyond that, the humidity causes the iron reinforcement to swell, and crack the concrete.


There's an old adage in the construction industry - there are two types of concrete: concrete that is cracked, and concrete that hasn't yet cracked.


The big advantage of concrete is cost. It's cheaper to store/transport some cement and sand that it is to kiln fire bricks and transport those. Labor in CH is expensive, so pouring concrete means you can get four walls built in a day. Bricks you can only put so many courses in a day before the weight compresses the lower joints.
Reinforced Concrete (RC) when properly constructed is extremely durable. Its considerably stronger than masonry and partly because of this additonal strength and durability, its is more expensive than blockwork. I have never known poured concrete to be cheaper than blockwork for standard domestic construction. If it were, there would be almost no masonry construction where that is applicable.

Re the old adage: I hadn't heard that I must admit. However as a pedantic structural engineer, I would add that all reinforced concrete cracks (unless constantly under compression) and this is factored into and expected in the design of reinforced concrete. The various norms have provisions in the detailing of the reinforcement to limit the extent of cracking based on the use of the concrete. So for a pool, the allowed crack width is less than for a wall in a house and so on.

Regarding humidity causing swelling and cracking, that should only happen if built incorrectly.
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  #28  
Old 26.02.2021, 15:47
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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In most european countries, poured concrete house means -solidity . Everything else is "cardbox" . Cant really resist a big storm, flood, earthquake etc.. but poured concrete is steel like
Actually wooden houses are safer in a serious earthquake, by quite a significant margin. Concrete is really bad. You need a flexible foundation, Concrete fottings and walls is as bad as it gets. The wood can flex and absorbs the shock. This is why larger buildings can have active foundations, and steel sub structures to transfer forces across the whole building, along with dampers.
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  #29  
Old 26.02.2021, 15:58
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

We built three houses in 2019 in Kanton SH and none of them have bunkers.
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  #30  
Old 26.02.2021, 16:20
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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Reinforced Concrete (RC) when properly constructed is extremely durable. Its considerably stronger than masonry and partly because of this additonal strength and durability, its is more expensive than blockwork. I have never known poured concrete to be cheaper than blockwork for standard domestic construction. If it were, there would be almost no masonry construction where that is applicable.

Re the old adage: I hadn't heard that I must admit. However as a pedantic structural engineer, I would add that all reinforced concrete cracks (unless constantly under compression) and this is factored into and expected in the design of reinforced concrete. The various norms have provisions in the detailing of the reinforcement to limit the extent of cracking based on the use of the concrete. So for a pool, the allowed crack width is less than for a wall in a house and so on.

Regarding humidity causing swelling and cracking, that should only happen if built incorrectly.
I dont know whether our house is "poured" or just normal concrete but you practically need one of those Channel Tunnel mining machines to make even the slightest holes in the walls. channeling anything new for electrics or so on fills me with dread each time.

its not going to fall over, put it that way.
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  #31  
Old 26.02.2021, 16:26
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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I dont know whether our house is "poured" or just normal concrete but you practically need one of those Channel Tunnel mining machines to make even the slightest holes in the walls. channeling anything new for electrics or so on fills me with dread each time.
All concrete is poured. Where it is poured makes the difference.

It can be poured, onsite - into wooden forms (upright for walls) or flat for floors.*

It can be poured into forms at a factory and then once dry, transported to the site and lifted into place by crane.

* walls can also be poured on the floor onto a wax-covered surface and then once dry, lifted into place.
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  #32  
Old 26.02.2021, 17:09
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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All concrete is poured. Where it is poured makes the difference.

It can be poured, onsite - into wooden forms (upright for walls) or flat for floors.*

It can be poured into forms at a factory and then once dry, transported to the site and lifted into place by crane.

* walls can also be poured on the floor onto a wax-covered surface and then once dry, lifted into place.
There are also concrete blocks (bricks) of varying density, which are generally NOT described as "poured" concrete although obviously at some point the mix was poured into a mould.
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Old 26.02.2021, 17:22
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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Actually wooden houses are safer in a serious earthquake, by quite a significant margin. Concrete is really bad. You need a flexible foundation, Concrete fottings and walls is as bad as it gets. The wood can flex and absorbs the shock. This is why larger buildings can have active foundations, and steel sub structures to transfer forces across the whole building, along with dampers.

If I would build today, I would certainly use wood based ICF system such as http://www.legnobloc.it/, it combines best of wood and concrete.
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  #34  
Old 26.02.2021, 18:10
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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There are also concrete blocks (bricks) of varying density, which are generally NOT described as "poured" concrete although obviously at some point the mix was poured into a mould.
yup. i mentioned poured concrete to distinguish from concrete brick. i've only seen concrete poured on-site in switzerland. is it common to use pre-fab slabs here?
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Old 26.02.2021, 18:29
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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yup. i mentioned poured concrete to distinguish from concrete brick. i've only seen concrete poured on-site in switzerland. is it common to use pre-fab slabs here?
No idea how common it is, but the most recent build nearby used a combination; in addition to the usual prefabbed stairs they also had prefabbed doorways and windows in relatively large sheets of concrete, with reinforcing bars sticking out of the side to tie in.

They were put in place and then poured around; I guess it's easier to get the precision for standard sized stuff in a factory.
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  #36  
Old 26.02.2021, 18:52
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

I think the universal use of concrete has to do, like most things Swiss, with a network or cartel - They would certainly be very solid.

We moved into our present new build in 2008 without a euphemistically named Luftschutzkeller aka nuclear shelter. Our previous newbuild in 1995 was also without shelter, though beds were reserved in the get-to-know-your-neighbours communal shelter.

But now we have no communicable shelter and will be standing out in the garden when the bombs drop to get it over with asap...
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  #37  
Old 26.02.2021, 18:55
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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I'm used to wood-framed houses and houses with brick. I'm guessing also that concrete houses are more expensive to construct compared to brick. So why are so many houses built out of concrete here? Is there an advantage to poured concrete construction?
May I refer you to the three little pigs??
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  #38  
Old 26.02.2021, 20:35
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Re: Why are houses in Switzerland often made with poured concrete?

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I think the universal use of concrete has to do, like most things Swiss, with a network or cartel - They would certainly be very solid....
The concrete cartel, if there is or was one, would also have supplied key raw materials like the cement to the block manufacturers. So they would profit regardless of whether houses were constructed of reinforced concrete or block work.

Someone else questioned pre-fabricated slabs: I always liked that as a solution because it provides a safe working platform immediately and because the slabs are made off site in factory like conditions, the quality control is often better than an100% poured concrete slab. Once the walls are constructed, the pre fab slabs can be lifted into place and the site workers can walk on that already. They have to fix more reinforcement and all that but it’s strong enough to support their weight. Whilst with a 100% poured concrete on site slab, you need to get carpenters to assemble the formwork, or the temporary support for the wet concrete, which then stays in place until the concrete is sufficiently strong for them to be removed.
This carpentry work as well as the supply and fixing of reinforcement contributes significantly to poured concrete being the more expensive option with respect to wall construction.
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