Apartment parking charge station for hybrid / electric cars .. who pays? - Page 2

DL21 · #21 26.03.2021, 10:39

you have no electricity at home?

st2lemans · #22 26.03.2021, 10:47

	Quote:	DL21
	you have no electricity at home?

Not externally, no.

Tom

AbFab · #23 26.03.2021, 17:46

	Quote:	Axa
	Why? We live in small Switzerland. Plug in hybrids with 50km electric range are more than enough for daily errands. Possible to drive entirely on electricity from Monday to Friday and burn gas only on a longer weekend drive.

The problem with hybrids is that they are hauling round all the paraphernalia for and ICE car - from exhaust, radiator, fuel injection system, gearbox etc etc - plus batteries and electric motors.

So fuel economy is compromised when running on fossil fuel or battery, caused by the weight of the other system.

In essence you get none of of the low maintenance advantages of all electric as the ICE part will still require servicing.

Even if charged to full after 50kms, the fossil fuelled bit cuts in and drags all the EV bits round with it.

I would say pure ICE is better than hybrid...

robBob · #24 26.03.2021, 17:56

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Have them at work, but NOT at home. Tom

No extension cables?

Axa · #25 26.03.2021, 18:07

	Quote:	AbFab
	The problem with hybrids is that they are hauling round all the paraphernalia for and ICE car - from exhaust, radiator, fuel injection system, gearbox etc etc - plus batteries and electric motors. So fuel economy is compromised when running on fossil fuel or battery, caused by the weight of the other system. In essence you get none of of the low maintenance advantages of all electric as the ICE part will still require servicing. Even if charged to full after 50kms, the fossil fuelled bit cuts in and drags all the EV bits round with it. I would say pure ICE is better than hybrid...

My lovely ICE car consumes between 8.5-11 km/l depending on my mood. Apparently, the hyundai ioniq plug-in hybrid gets 30+ km/l when driven for little errands and occasional long drives https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/hyunda...plug-in-hybrid

If I drove one of those hybrids, I could divide my fuel consumption by at least 3. Nice big Coop 4 km away, wife's job 6 km, my old job with recharge outlets 21km, major train station 5 km away.

Before covid I drove 18K km in a year. Today that we've been a year with covid, I did only 7K km. I think I'll stay like this because my contract is now 100% home office. I could live with an hybrid, only lacking the will

st2lemans · #26 26.03.2021, 18:10

	Quote:	robBob
	No extension cables?

Not practical.

Tom

Mr.Maquiavelo · #27 28.03.2021, 11:48

If I am following correctly the different posts, the general consensus here is that hybrid eco friendliness (and cost advantage) is just a fallacy result of politics or big corp corruption and that Diesel is no worse than any other fuel source car type or? It is an interesting discussion ...

I had before a BMW 530d xDrive 265PS, fantastic engine, ECO and Sport modes both outstanding, I could go to Italy and back for a full diesel tank 65l and have some to spare.

Now switched to the BMW 545e xDrive 390PS amazing tech package, prof. drive assistant is mind blowing, I will pay half the price for yearly car tax and other cost rebates e.g car insurance approx. 30% cheaper. But according to this thread it is all a fallacy and the diesel one was just as eco friendly?

AbFab · #28 28.03.2021, 14:53

	Quote:	Mr.Maquiavelo
	If I am following correctly the different posts, the general consensus here is that hybrid eco friendliness (and cost advantage) is just a fallacy result of politics or big corp corruption and that Diesel is no worse than any other fuel source car type or? It is an interesting discussion ... I had before a BMW 530d xDrive 265PS, fantastic engine, ECO and Sport modes both outstanding, I could go to Italy and back for a full diesel tank 65l and have some to spare. Now switched to the BMW 545e xDrive 390PS amazing tech package, prof. drive assistant is mind blowing, I will pay half the price for yearly car tax and other cost rebates e.g car insurance approx. 30% cheaper. But according to this thread it is all a fallacy and the diesel one was just as eco friendly?

Why do you think VW, Audi, Peugeot etc tried to illegally falsifying their exhaust tests?

Why are western governments stopping the sales of petrol and diesel in a matters of years??

Phil_MCR · #29 28.03.2021, 15:10

	Quote:	Castro
	Think about your usage and whether you really need a home charge point. If you only do a couple of hundred km a week then its entirely possible to get away with charging at supermarkets, highway services etc.. I did the same analysis as I was considering a Tesla Model 3, knowing that I wouldn't be able to charge at home. In the end I didn't go for it, but it wasn't due to charging at home. I knew I could get a free charge at work or at any one of the dozens of other places I frequently visit. P.S The Tesla model 3 battery weighs 480 kg, even if your portable only weighed 100kg you're not going to give it much juice

he just needs to carry it up and down 4-5 times to do a full charge. a totally cost effective and practical solution!

st2lemans · #30 28.03.2021, 15:13

	Quote:	AbFab
	Why are western governments stopping the sales of petrol and diesel in a matters of years??

Because they are corrupt idiots.

Same with nuclear.

Tom

Mr.Maquiavelo · #31 29.03.2021, 09:35

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Not practical. Tom

Interesting ... do you mean to have a long extension cable to charge from the apartment electric outlet? and then do the slow charging from there?

st2lemans · #32 29.03.2021, 09:39

	Quote:	Mr.Maquiavelo
	Interesting ... do you mean to have a long extension cable to charge from the apartment electric outlet? and then do the slow charging from there?

Yes.

Tom

Mr.Maquiavelo · #33 29.03.2021, 17:41

I was talking about this topic with a Swiss friend of mine and he brought up an interesting related question: even if I pay for the installation, they can charge for the electricity provided 2x or even 3x margin of the original electricity price for using the connection on top of their fast charging station. Is this possible? is it in any way regulated? I wouldn't want to find my self sponsoring the fast charging installation to later find I am also being over-charged for the electricity charging consumption.

AbFab · #34 29.03.2021, 17:59

	Quote:	Mr.Maquiavelo
	I was talking about this topic with a Swiss friend of mine and he brought up an interesting related question: even if I pay for the installation, they can charge for the electricity provided 2x or even 3x margin of the original electricity price for using the connection on top of their fast charging station. Is this possible? is it in any way regulated? I wouldn't want to find my self sponsoring the fast charging installation to later find I am also being over-charged for the electricity charging consumption.

My Tesla Wall Connector is wired into the same 3 phase as our washing machine/drier. There is no way, unless a separate meter is installed to calculate the difference between what uses what.

"Fast charging station" is a misnomer: the fastest charging A/C is 11kWh (with 3 phase). Fast charging is D/C and anywhere from 50-250kWh and only available at Tesla Superchargers, Ionoty etc. Not domestically.

fatmanfilms · #35 29.03.2021, 18:09

	Quote:	AbFab
	My Tesla Wall Connector is wired into the same 3 phase as our washing machine/drier. There is no way, unless a separate meter is installed to calculate the difference between what uses what. "Fast charging station" is a misnomer: the fastest charging A/C is 11kWh (with 3 phase). Fast charging is D/C and anywhere from 50-250kWh and only available at Tesla Superchargers, Ionoty etc. Not domestically.

Why is it limited to 11kw, that sounds like a 16amp a phase connection. I installed 64 Amp 3 phase in an apartment in ZH in 2000 it was no big deal as just 1 connection.

st2lemans · #36 29.03.2021, 18:19

	Quote:	Mr.Maquiavelo
	I was talking about this topic with a Swiss friend of mine and he brought up an interesting related question: even if I pay for the installation, they can charge for the electricity provided 2x or even 3x margin of the original electricity price for using the connection on top of their fast charging station. Is this possible? is it in any way regulated? I wouldn't want to find my self sponsoring the fast charging installation to later find I am also being over-charged for the electricity charging consumption.

Who is "they"?

Tom

AbFab · #37 29.03.2021, 19:15

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Why is it limited to 11kw, that sounds like a 16amp a phase connection. I installed 64 Amp 3 phase in an apartment in ZH in 2000 it was no big deal as just 1 connection.

11kWh is the max A/C charge the car can take and is higher than most EVs...

fatmanfilms · #38 29.03.2021, 20:05

	Quote:	AbFab
	11kWh is the max A/C charge the car can take and is higher than most EVs...

No reason not to convert to DC, how do you think the Tesla Fast chargers get their DC power from. 'O' level physics when I was at school in the 1970's.

I suppose they could use DC Diesel generators

Axa · #39 29.03.2021, 23:02

Fresh news about EVs and chargers in CH https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/electri...eady-/46469024

Subsidies? Why? People is wealthy enough to buy the electric cars, they're buying lots of them without subsidies

	Quote:
	Martin Winder, head of transport projects at the Transport and Environment Association (VCS/ATE), believes Norway’s strategy of subsidising EVs is far too expensive - estimated to cost CHF2 billion – and unnecessary in Switzerland.“The fact that more and more electric models are being sold shows that it’s possible to do without such a strategy,” he said.

Chargers at home in a rented apartment? No one cares.

	Quote:
	Where Switzerland is really lagging behind, says the ETH Zurich researcher, is car owners’ ability to charge at home, whether it be in an apartment garage or on the streets where residents park overnight. One solution may come from Switzerland’s neighbour. Last year, Germany passed a bill giving tenants the right to install a charging station for their EV. It also made it compulsory for building owners to upgrade the wiring in the building as necessary for the chargers. This change could emerge in Switzerland, but it will be very difficult, officials say; nobody is currently lobbying for it.

Why worry about chargers today? Engineers will improve this sh*t and current technology will be obsolete faster than an iPhone.

	Quote:
	“Then again, in five to ten years technology could solve the problem. Electric cars could charge so fast and have such big batteries that essentially you treat them as a gasoline car, but we're not there yet.”

rainer_d · #40 30.03.2021, 02:48

	Quote:	meloncollie
	Here are some threads discussing the cost of installing electric charging stations in garages, one in a new build, others in older garages: https://www.englishforum.ch/housing-...-charging.html https://www.englishforum.ch/transpor...-who-pays.html https://www.englishforum.ch/transpor...tric-cars.html As my posts show, installing electric charging stations in older garages can bring up a plethora of issues and costs. Our Quartier - a mix of single family homes, duplexes, and two four-flats - share a common underground garage. Installing electric chargers is proving to be complicated and expensive. Our early estimates of 3-10K per owner is looking to run towards the hgher end. We've each had to kick in1.5K so far just to fund a feasibility study. We are guessing we are years away from a solution. Your 2.5K for the whole thing is looking like a good price. One issue we face is the amount of power required to charge 50-some cars. Or even half that, assuming each owner only charges one of their cars at a time. The current electric system can only take 5 or so cars at a time, so we either need to build what essentially would be our own power substation (for which permits are unlikely to be forthcoming) or to come up with some sort of charging rota - shades of the shared laundry room horrors we all thought we had left behind when buying our own homes, and would mean our cars might not be useable for much of the time. Yes, a charging station is cheap if you have an installation for a single car - that is, a stand alone garage that is entirely yours. Add in other cars or communal usage, and it starts to snowball. Our home owners' association is at an impasse at present - given current regs, power supply, garage structure it looks like at present it is almost not feasible to install chargers for our common garage. Yet electric is the future. An infrastructure out trade. So my 2P: If you can get a charger installed in your garage, never mind the cost, just get it while you can.

Hey melloncollie,

have you thought about using a large buffer battery?
Tesla has something like this on truckbeds that they used to ship to busy superchargers on holiday weekends.
And AFAIK the superchargers themselves also use buffer batteries.
It will be interesting how this problem is solved.
It certainly cannot be dragged out forever.