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Old 10.04.2021, 22:04
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Yes, Nick, I already started looking, I just don't want to pay for the 3 extra months of exaggerated rent, nor help him find another dupe.

I'm sure that if I confront the guy directly, he will agree to lower the rent by a few hundreds, but I don't want to live with a sociopath, and I want him to pay for being a crook, especially if the law is on my side.

The WTF moment that made me ask the other flatmate about him was: I found something bulky that belongs to him in my closet, I gave it to him and asked him to put it somewhere else, and after a few days I found it in my closet again.
He also stores stuff in the other flatmate's room. All of this while having the largest room with lots of free space. I think he has a psychological disorder.
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  #22  
Old 11.04.2021, 15:46
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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Thanks newtowitz!
The 30 days mark will be in a couple of days. Is it "business days" or including weekends and holidays? Who should I complain to and how? (i.e. do I need to send an express official letter?)
30 calendar days, though if ending on weekends that may affect (extend) that a bit.

See the map on the right side of this page for which SchlichtungsBehörde is the one responsible for your area. Personally, I'd call first to ensure it's the right one, and ask for directions on how to proceed (is email usable, or does it have to be mail or registered mail?) plus applicable time limits/dates. And is it Ok to send incomplete data, e.g. with the form linked below missing? Does the minimum contract duration, if any, mentioned in the contract apply?

Is your room furnished? Basically, bed+wardrobe+table+one chair provided by the renter means it's furnished. In that case your notice period should be much shorter.

Talking about entire unfurmished apartments only, the main renter can't let for more than 10% of his rent, and the owner must have been informed about the sublet and the conditions applied.
Not sure how partial rents are calculated, but I'd expect each renter's private space/area to be the determinant factor, also worth enquiring.

I believe the main tenant must have handed you this form filled out. Given it's a sublet, I wouldn't be surprised if you're also entitled to know how much everybody else pays, you need that to determine how everyone's share is calculated. It looks like there's no way around handing the form to the (new) subrenter, i.e. to you. Failing to do so may extend the 30 day limit mentioned above, another thing worth enquiring with your SchlichtungsBehörde when you call them.

Oh, and of course he has no business being in your room, or use anything that's yours, including your cabinet. In theory simply forbidding him doing it again should do, but in practice it's advisable that you can prove your doing so. If it's mentioned in your contracts as yours, that should be proof in and of itself (also worth confirming with the SchlichtungsBehörde).

And yes, Mieterverband membership is strongly recommended. You may also want to ask them how much it costs to have a representative of theirs on the spot.

Good luck.

ETA:
If the SchlichtungsBehörde finds that the rent is excessive, in my experience a reduction is retroactive and apply to the entire duration of the contract.

Last edited by Urs Max; 11.04.2021 at 16:00.
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  #23  
Old 11.04.2021, 16:40
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

If the room is furnished, the notice period is 2 weeks only, for the end of the month.

The rules for renting a furnished room are totally different- but even so, the owner of the property has to be informed and give official consent.
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Old 11.04.2021, 17:35
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Thanks, that's very useful!

I bought all of the furniture in the room before moving in (it belonged to the second Hauptmieter who moved out). Unfortunately, I don't have any proof of that except for transferring a few hundred more CHF than needed for the rent in the first month.

Does the 30 day period count from the signing of the contract, or from the move-in date?
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Old 11.04.2021, 17:40
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Ah this gets even more complicated- so you did not rent a furnished room from the main tenant, eg the furniture was not his - so ...

Only Asloca can help. Good luck. If the room is rented furnished, then it is 2 weeks, for the end of the month. So if you give notice on 1st of the month- it will be for the end of said month, and if you give notice in the middle, same, but shorter notice.
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Old 11.04.2021, 22:03
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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Does the 30 day period count from the signing of the contract, or from the move-in date?
The linked form says it's from when you got control of the object, that's usually the move-in date.

How you bought the furniture, or from whom, and for how much, has no effect on what you rent. It looks like you rent without furniture, which comes with 3 months notice period. Check your contract, longer terms are permitted as long as it's the same for both parties.

The default end dates for a rental contract are March+June+September in Zürich city, March+September for the rest of Canton Zürich; a renter will usually want "Ende jeden Monts" instead for increased flexibility (which still excludes December, that's not a legal cancel date). Anyway either arrangements are legal; check your contract. Further, the contract may come with a minimum duration, in which case that's how it is.

For additional questions you should upload an anonymised scan of your contract (all pages), this is too much guesswork.

Oh, and, WRT the SchlichtungsBehörde (arbitration panel), they have no outright authority to order like a court does, but AFAIA they're free of cost for you, they must be consulted before a court can be consulted, and their findings will usually be strongly considered by the courts, so most parties will accept their findings.
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Old 11.04.2021, 22:06
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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Ah this gets even more complicated- so you did not rent a furnished room from the main tenant, eg the furniture was not his - so ...

Only Asloca can help. Good luck. If the room is rented furnished, then it is 2 weeks, for the end of the month. So if you give notice on 1st of the month- it will be for the end of said month, and if you give notice in the middle, same, but shorter notice.
Is this a law or practice? If both agree can this period be longer?
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Old 11.04.2021, 22:10
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

It's 3 months unfurnished, 2 weeks if furnished. But of course if everybody agrees, anything can happen.
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Old 11.04.2021, 22:37
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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It's 3 months unfurnished, 2 weeks if furnished. But of course if everybody agrees, anything can happen.
Clear so if the contract says 3 months then it's not two weeks because the room is furnished? I had understood your post as such and wanted to understand better
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Old 11.04.2021, 23:27
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Thanks Urs Max, here's the Untermietevertrag: https://imgur.com/a/r54bW1C.

I previously messed up the dates a bit: I signed more than a month ago, and moved-in in the beginning of April.

I did the calculations. This is not 100%, as I still need to check how much the third flatmate pays exactly, but it should be in the ball park:
I'm paying 98% more than the fare share, the other flatmates 37% more (after she confronted him and got a reduction) and 12%(?) more. The main tenant (biggest room, personal bathroom) is not paying any rent and is additionally getting ~200CHF(?) per month to his bank account.
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  #31  
Old 11.04.2021, 23:36
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

In addition to the Untermietvertrag, I got a floorplan, but these are the only documents I received.

The other flatmate who pays too much sent me photos of the contract with the landlord (she got it after confronting them). It does include the form mentioned before, but I didn't get it from the main tenants.
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Old 12.04.2021, 09:59
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Update: I spoke to the MV, and they told me that this is illegal and scheduled me a lawyer appointment later this week, while advising that there's no need to take any action until I speak with the lawyer.

According to them, there is no time limit, as this is clearly illegal.

I'll update when I know more.
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Old 21.04.2021, 12:49
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

The lawyer advised that I can ask for the form that was mentioned earlier in the thread and go to the Schlichtungsbehoerde, but that can only achieve a reduction of the rent. And of course I could talk to the landlord.

I talked to the main tenant about it, and after some discussions and threats, he agreed to terminate my contract at the end of the month, buy back the furniture and pay me back about 60% of the excessive part of the rent. He really doesn't want me to talk to the landlord.

He wants us to sign a contract that says these things, and then to transfer the money at the end of the month when I leave, according to him it's a guarantee that I don't trash the apartment, but I'm worried that he is trying some other fishy thing.

I'll go over it with a lawyer, but please let me know if you notice anything fishy: https://imgur.com/a/0nPFmFF.
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  #34  
Old 21.04.2021, 13:14
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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The lawyer advised that I can ask for the form that was mentioned earlier in the thread and go to the Schlichtungsbehoerde, but that can only achieve a reduction of the rent. And of course I could talk to the landlord.

I talked to the main tenant about it, and after some discussions and threats, he agreed to terminate my contract at the end of the month, buy back the furniture and pay me back about 60% of the excessive part of the rent. He really doesn't want me to talk to the landlord.

He wants us to sign a contract that says these things, and then to transfer the money at the end of the month when I leave, according to him it's a guarantee that I don't trash the apartment, but I'm worried that he is trying some other fishy thing.

I'll go over it with a lawyer, but please let me know if you notice anything fishy: https://imgur.com/a/0nPFmFF.
The contract is good for you too.

Have following additions done before signing:
after "voraussichtlich 30. April 2021"
voraussichtlich per 30. April 2021, spätestens aber bis 15. Mai 2021.

and also:
"Das gesamte Mobiliar wird für CH. xx zurückgekauft"
Das gesamte Mobiliar wird für CH. xx zurückgekauft, die Zahlung erfolgt ebenfalls per 30. April 2021, spätestens aber bis 15. Mai 2021.

This way you don't need to argue after but can start procedures (Betreibung) if they don't pay.
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  #35  
Old 21.04.2021, 13:42
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Wait a minute...you are only responsible for your room. This contract states that you in addition are responsible for the entire appartement beeing the way you found it the day you moved in, which is impossible since you do not live alone.

Also the part that no furniture/items are suppose to be damaged or stolen. To easy to pin something on you to get out of paying you.
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Old 21.04.2021, 13:46
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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The lawyer advised that I can ask for the form that was mentioned earlier in the thread and go to the Schlichtungsbehoerde, but that can only achieve a reduction of the rent. And of course I could talk to the landlord.

I talked to the main tenant about it, and after some discussions and threats, he agreed to terminate my contract at the end of the month, buy back the furniture and pay me back about 60% of the excessive part of the rent. He really doesn't want me to talk to the landlord.

He wants us to sign a contract that says these things, and then to transfer the money at the end of the month when I leave, according to him it's a guarantee that I don't trash the apartment, but I'm worried that he is trying some other fishy thing.

I'll go over it with a lawyer, but please let me know if you notice anything fishy: https://imgur.com/a/0nPFmFF.
If you can, please talk to the landlord so that this does not happen to the next unfortunate person.
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Old 21.04.2021, 13:57
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

I am with the others here.
Check with the Mietverband lawyer, I am not sure you should sign this.
The fact that he so readily agrees to terminate the contract is proof that what he does is illegal.

Also - and more importantly - never and by that I am never - sign a contract where the notice period is longer for the tenant (Mieter) then the landlord (Vermieter). They ought to be the same.
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Old 21.04.2021, 14:14
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

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Wait a minute...you are only responsible for your room. This contract states that you in addition are responsible for the entire appartement beeing the way you found it the day you moved in, which is impossible since you do not live alone.

Also the part that no furniture/items are suppose to be damaged or stolen. To easy to pin something on you to get out of paying you.
Correct, the "gesamte Wohnung" needs out. The bit about OP not allowed to steal is kind of redundant.

What I didn't notice: Die Parteien vereinbaren Stillschweigen.
Too late for that, huh? Couldn't be more public. I would not go for that one either. Anyway, what's the big secret?
How come this guy is so worried about you trashing/raiding the flat? Do you generally have an aggressive streak? Or does he?

Still, if you adapt this contract as mentioned it's the only way to get out of the contract without losing money that quickly and let's face it that's what you want, not save the world.
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Old 21.04.2021, 14:40
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Thanks for the advice! I will also talk to the MV ASAP.

I think that he added the part about not damaging/stealing because I demanded that he pays me back a week before I leave, and he needed an excuse to not agree to it. Or he is planning to claim that I caused some damage and not pay me.

Regarding calling the owners - I'm considering doing that after I get some of the money back (can it screw me with the Stillschweigen part?).
They already put the room up on flatfox and wgzimmer again. The price is 50CHF lower than what I payed, but still way too high compared to what they pay.

BTW, he said that he can't give me a Formular zur Mitteilung des Anfangsmietzinses, because I'm the first one living there, even though the other Hauptmieter lived there before me and reportedly paid 1/4 of what I pay.
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Old 21.04.2021, 15:55
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Re: Scammed by the Hauptmieter

Very odd wording. Is he again trying to screw you?

I'd like the fact though that the entire thing ends this month, assuming that's what you want.

- remove the date from title, that's irrelevant
- I'd want all money to flow when you hand over the keys, in cash (or earlier, but they won't agree to that). No money no key handover (possibly unlawful but who cares).
- the ending of the 2nd bullet, "sofern die ..." is irrelevant, remove. Likewise the "voraussichtlich" a few words before. Contract and rent end April 30th, that's when key handover and your move out take place and the cash changes hands. Full stop.
- as others already mentioned, you're only responsible for the room, not the apartment
- "Mit Erfüllung ..." conditions the ending for both parties on the other's fulfilling their duties. For instance, if they don't pay the furniture price you're still in the contract.
- the paragraph before the "Stillschweigen" clause makes no sense at all. "Gleicher Zustand" (in the same state) is meaningless. Make it "clean" instead.
- remove the "Stillschweigen" clause, why would you bind yourself that way

Your rental contract doesn't mention a deposit. If there is one I'd want that in the agreement as well, paid back in cash.

Apparently the couple acts jointly. Accepting the signature of only one of them may be tricky. Perhaps ask the MV lawyer about that.

AFAIK the MV also offer to have one of them present for handover, their hourly rate is quite reasonable. Perhaps something worth considering, especially given the weird wording (gleicher Zustand etc).
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