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Old 19.04.2021, 12:32
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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What I don't get is - is it legal to have the permits guys connected to local entrepreneurs?

I mean back home we have tens if not hundreds of law suits and people sent to prison exactly because of these practices.
Oh, there is no requirement.

Just... small village. Vitamin B. Read between the lines.

Sure one could fight a permit denial. But.. again, small village.

As a square peg not fitting very well into a round hole, with a target already on my back, I learned not to make waves.

YMMV.
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Old 19.04.2021, 13:02
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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What I don't get is - is it legal to have the permits guys connected to local entrepreneurs?

I mean back home we have tens if not hundreds of law suits and people sent to prison exactly because of these practices.
I think you made the wrong argumentum e contrario here.

Swiss kitchen builders fulfil the Swiss laws automatically (they would not make much business if not). Foreign companies are cheaper but follow their own rules.

I don't know much about individual permits needed for kitchens but I know for example that in the house I live they were not allowed to build in cooker hood ventilators which lead outside. Although there are houses around that have them. It simply became too many or something silly like that.
Or it was just a poor excuse of the owner for the useless one in my flat.
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Old 19.04.2021, 13:44
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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This sounds also a bit like the swiss phenomenon that I like to call: 'The-I-already-have-too-much-money-and-I-don’t-want-yours-phenomenon’

Copied and edited from an old post of mine:

The phenomenon is businesses in Switzerland (of all types) generally not behaving like they are interested in getting your business

[Side note – I am going to make a general complaint about Switzerland which is something that I generally try to avoid. As a rule, I am pretty positive about living in Switzerland and I don’t like to complain and I especially don't like vauge and general compliants].

So, some examples:
- You talk to a repairman or Handwerker or whatever. They begin by telling you how complicated your request is and what a problem it is . I always feel like... 'if my business is such a problem for you, I’ll hire someone else'.
- You come to a restaurant and there are a lot of empty tables outside. You sit outside and someone comes and tells you that you can’t sit there. It isn’t open or whatever.
- You want to get your bike serviced in spring --> and you have to make an appointment in Summer. I mean, come on, you are a bike store - you've got nothing to do October through Febuary - March, April and May is the time to do a ton of overtime and make a ton of money.
It's not just CH attitude it seems. In DE I had similar experiences.

Last week repairman started with something along the line of 'oh boy this is a problem', and I was like 'you mean you cannot do it or it's just cost?'
He said 'cost', and I said 'I don't care', so after that we collaborated just fine. So I'm under the impression that since so many folks put cost in front of everything, repairmen just want to really emphasize how it won't be easy task. Not to mention that many folks don't understand what it means 'take the machine apart' eg that we're talking hours not minutes. So I can understand where the 'whining' stems from - psychological preparation of the customer for the bill

Didn't have such restaurant experience here, but last and this year bike service in Berlin was/is crazy.

Like, I went in mid July, and free slots were in November, October and August, in three workshops I've asked in.

Now I went in end March and got a slot for June. And now there are two of them working as opposed to last year when the guy was alone

And this guy has constant 'hiring' but there are no folks to do the job, so that might be similar issue in CH. Ok granted, I was looking at places with good reputation, so they probably don't want to employ anyone who shows up.

And they do turn down folks with 'I have some issue' who just come to the door with 'if you don't have an appointment, I'm sorry but I can't help you'.

And corona times made everything crazier. But granted, here in Berlin I didn't ride my bike just from mid Dezember to mid February, and people around me were driving as well, so I'd assume workshops here have things to do for the most of the year, but yes, spring is probably big blow also.
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Old 19.04.2021, 13:58
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

Thanks to all of you who gave me your objective view! (and thank you for your support)

(I don't know how to 'multiple quote', but let me 'quote freely' some of your helpful comments)...


Island Monkey>> Can't believe you're even still thinking about giving him your business

I wouldn't!!! but my OH is a 'local', so there is another battle going on here...

Tom1234 >> I thought the world had moved on.

No, it hasn't. I have confirmation of this everyday (particularly working with small / local businesses).


evop>> Apart from xxxlutz, Hornbach, Bauhaus... have you considered IKEA?

That would have been my direct first choice -- I don't want my kitchen to survive me, I want to be able to re-decorate the WHOLE house every 10 years... but I have been 'banned' from considering it, as my OH believes it is 'low quality'. I also (challenging all the no-trespass country legislation) jumped to GE to MobelMarkt -- they serve CH customers from A to Y (the Z=connection of electric appliances, which they CANNOT do). Well, finally i got the ultimate reason from my OH 'I want to maintain the local (=swiss) economy). So, no IKEA, no MObelMarkt, and no FUST (as it is made in GE).

blacky>> People with good intentions make mistakes and you'll have a fuss to resolve, but people with bad intentions, can't even imagine how bad that could turn out

indeed!!! fully agree with it, and that's what I have read on the google reviews and is scaring the hell out of me

Jazh>> This sounds also a bit like the swiss phenomenon that I like to call: 'The-I-already-have-too-much-money-and-I-don’t-want-yours-phenomenon’

let me tell you about the CH PM that we tried to hire...., came to see the place and said that he usually does only houses starting at 500m2... (so, if we sent him the plans before, and he saw it was not the case...why he still wasted his -and our- time). And the quote that we received from him was either (a) i'm going to consider that my minimum starts at 500m2 and charge you for that minimum or (b) as you rightfully quoted, 'i have to much money and i don't want to bother with your small project'...

Greenmount >> Unfortunately I don't have any suggestion yet, but I have to tell you that I'm constantly surprised by the stories I read on EF. How on earth do you guys find such terrible businessmen?

suggested by the PM above....

I was wondering that maybe the attitude of this guy changed because I was not Swiss bred. I must give him that he was a very good sales-man. He had clearly 'sought' the profile of my OH, and the remarks / comments / positioning that he presented about his company was spot-on, talking benefits that my OH could relate to, he managed to find 'common' acquittances with his family ancestors (who come from 40 - 50 km away), and 'pampered' him.
He just missed one point.... I am the chef on that (future) kitchen!
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Old 19.04.2021, 14:04
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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I was wondering that maybe the attitude of this guy changed because I was not Swiss bred. I must give him that he was a very good sales-man. He had clearly 'sought' the profile of my OH, and the remarks / comments / positioning that he presented about his company was spot-on, talking benefits that my OH could relate to, he managed to find 'common' acquittances with his family ancestors (who come from 40 - 50 km away), and 'pampered' him.
He just missed one point.... I am the chef on that (future) kitchen!
I wouldn't be so sure that his attitude changed because of that. He seemed like an old school guy who believes the man in the family makes these decisions.....

I told you - bad businessman.
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Old 19.04.2021, 14:11
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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I wouldn't be so sure that his attitude changed because of that. He seemed like an old school guy who believes the man in the family makes these decisions.....

I told you - bad businessman.
Wouldn't an old school guy pamper the wife as she "belongs in the kitchen"?

Old school or not, small town or not, he should not get the business. There are tons of kitchen-builder in this country. It's not only the sales talk, those people will come to the house and spend time there! Sod that is what I'd say. Actually what I would have said on the spot.
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Old 19.04.2021, 14:21
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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Wouldn't an old school guy pamper the wife as she "belongs in the kitchen"?

Old school or not, small town or not, he should not get the business. There are tons of kitchen-builder in this country. It's not only the sales talk, those people will come to the house and spend time there! Sod that is what I'd say. Actually what I would have said on the spot.
I think old school address the man because they believe those are the ones who have technical capabilities to judge or assess whether a product is suitable or not and those are the one who also make all financial decisions....
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  #28  
Old 19.04.2021, 16:09
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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I've been wanting to renovate my kitchen for a good decade now, but have been unable to find a local firm who will do a small kitchen.

If you grovel and tug your forelock you might get a clerk to answer a question - but are more likely to be told that they can't be bothered.

Apparently I live on the wrong side of town, our grubby little houses are not worthy of the local kitchen Artistes' time.
Since you live close-by - have you asked https://www.hirzelmoebel.ch/galerie (from Hirzel?). My brother bought a dining table there so yes, not a kitchen, but he was satisfied.
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Old 19.04.2021, 16:44
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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They don't just send you 200 CHF for ticking the box (or at least they didn't ). You have to actually recommend somebody, then you get the payment when they go for a consultation.

That's not illegal anywhere I know of - frequently dubious no doubt, but less so than most advertising and a lot less than the fake reviews and "influencer" rubbish that pervades the internet.
That's not what it says in the article. Perhaps the article is misleading too?

Perhaps everything is misleading?
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Old 19.04.2021, 16:52
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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That's not what it says in the article. Perhaps the article is misleading too?

Perhaps everything is misleading?
More likely the article is just old (seven years), before I bought my kitchen from them.
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Old 19.04.2021, 17:04
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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the ultimate reason from my OH 'I want to maintain the local (=swiss) economy)
Arguably, the best way to support your local economy is to make the local businesses and the government aware of their flaws.
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  #32  
Old 19.04.2021, 19:40
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

BOT. Whilst the subject here is kitchens it does apply to more than a few people in sales here.

It's a dilemma, it could be a good company and you have the wrong salesperson. I have had the same experience with a kitchen company here and this was B2B but as the owner had an offer from this salesperson we were stuck with him. It took some time to sort out the issues but everyone else I dealt with at the company was good. So the moral of the story is be selective with who you choose for your salesperson which is easier said than done. Sometimes walking through a showroom and going with your gut feeling who looks nice actually works!
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Old 19.04.2021, 21:40
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

Izzt89: I'm baffled by one thing though - that your SO doesn't see such behaviour problematic, and puts local patriotism above his partner comfort

My SO would kick out of our premises (or leave if we'd be in theirs) the person talking in such way against me, no matter the rank, expertise and whatever. There's one line no one is allowed to cross, and that is no attacking of my family, in any form or shape.

And if he wouldn't, I'd seriously reconsider our companionship (and he'd do the same if I'd find acceptable that someone insults him)
Companionship to us means that we stand united against the world and the shit that might come. You don't respect one of us, you're out of the door, no ifs and buts.

In my case, my SO would be the one who'd notice first such inappropriate behaviour since I'm bad at social cues, so I don't need to worry about bad craftsmen.

So, I'd first sit down with your SO and have a serious talk about appropriate behaviour towards your team and how you stand and what do you want and how to move forward.
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Old 20.04.2021, 01:43
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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I was wondering that maybe the attitude of this guy changed because I was not Swiss bred. I must give him that he was a very good sales-man. He had clearly 'sought' the profile of my OH, and the remarks / comments / positioning that he presented about his company was spot-on, talking benefits that my OH could relate to, he managed to find 'common' acquittances with his family ancestors (who come from 40 - 50 km away), and 'pampered' him.
He just missed one point.... I am the chef on that (future) kitchen!
Seems to me your OH is the one who missed the point.
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Old 20.04.2021, 06:20
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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Izzt89: I'm baffled by one thing though - that your SO doesn't see such behaviour problematic, and puts local patriotism above his partner comfort

My SO would kick out of our premises (or leave if we'd be in theirs) the person talking in such way against me, no matter the rank, expertise and whatever. There's one line no one is allowed to cross, and that is no attacking of my family, in any form or shape.

And if he wouldn't, I'd seriously reconsider our companionship (and he'd do the same if I'd find acceptable that someone insults him)
Companionship to us means that we stand united against the world and the shit that might come. You don't respect one of us, you're out of the door, no ifs and buts.

In my case, my SO would be the one who'd notice first such inappropriate behaviour since I'm bad at social cues, so I don't need to worry about bad craftsmen.

So, I'd first sit down with your SO and have a serious talk about appropriate behaviour towards your team and how you stand and what do you want and how to move forward.

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Seems to me your OH is the one who missed the point.
Have to agree with these posts... sounds like the OP is in a relationship with a guy who is perhaps also a little 'old-fahioned'.
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Old 20.04.2021, 07:49
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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Companionship to us means that we stand united against the world and the shit that might come. You don't respect one of us, you're out of the door, no ifs and buts.

In my case, my SO would be the one who'd notice first such inappropriate behaviour since I'm bad at social cues, so I don't need to worry about bad craftsmen.
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Amen to that!
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Old 20.04.2021, 07:49
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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I'm baffled by one thing though - that your SO doesn't see such behaviour problematic, and puts local patriotism above his partner comfort

My SO would kick out of our premises (or leave if we'd be in theirs) the person talking in such way against me, no matter the rank, expertise and whatever. There's one line no one is allowed to cross, and that is no attacking of my family, in any form or shape.

And if he wouldn't, I'd seriously reconsider our companionship (and he'd do the same if I'd find acceptable that someone insults him)
Companionship to us means that we stand united against the world and the shit that might come. You don't respect one of us, you're out of the door, no ifs and buts.

In my case, my SO would be the one who'd notice first such inappropriate behaviour since I'm bad at social cues, so I don't need to worry about bad craftsmen.

So, I'd first sit down with your SO and have a serious talk about appropriate behaviour towards your team and how you stand and what do you want and how to move forward.
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]Seems to me your OH is the one who missed the point
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Have to agree with these posts... sounds like the OP is in a relationship with a guy who is perhaps also a little 'old-fahioned'.
Well, let's say that we are not the most 'standard' couple. And...no, I don't need anybody to defend me ... as someone said on one of the comments, it has to be put into context. A sales man of a carpenter shop is not going to put me down with sexists comments, and if we decide to give this guy the business... he is going to sweat blood. Payment upon final OK will only be the first of my conditions... Most of men that behave like that is because they feel very insecure in front of a strong female. Animal behaviour at its best.

Finally it is SPRING!!!!!!!

Last edited by MusicChick; 20.04.2021 at 08:29. Reason: fixed multiquote
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Old 20.04.2021, 08:24
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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Well, let's say that we are not the most 'standard' couple. And...no, I don't need anybody to defend me ... as someone said on one of the comments, it has to be put into context. A sales man of a carpenter shop is not going to put me down with sexists comments, and if we decide to give this guy the business... he is going to sweat blood. Payment upon final OK will only be the first of my conditions... Most of men that behave like that is because they feel very insecure in front of a strong female. Animal behaviour at its best.

Finally it is SPRING!!!!!!!
I agree with you, I was not under any impression that you need your partner to look after you and possible dangers 24/7, congrats on not being a standard couple. I would not blame your guy for some redneck's behavior in the sticks here, either. I actually encountered similar attitudes but not in the sale, so I do not think it is a business strategy, more of a folklore. Just something that might have worked for this particular badger, 30yrs ago.

Good luck with your kitchen. I am glad I do not have the time to redo ours.
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Old 20.04.2021, 09:13
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

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Well, let's say that we are not the most 'standard' couple. And...no, I don't need anybody to defend me ... as someone said on one of the comments, it has to be put into context. A sales man of a carpenter shop is not going to put me down with sexists comments, and if we decide to give this guy the business... he is going to sweat blood. Payment upon final OK will only be the first of my conditions... Most of men that behave like that is because they feel very insecure in front of a strong female. Animal behaviour at its best.

Finally it is SPRING!!!!!!!
The way your inquiry/negotiation process has started would definitely put me off. And not necessarily because of his sexist comments. He seemed, and correct me if I'm wrong, to hold particularly strong views about re-doing your/a kitchen. You don't want to have his version or the whole village's version of a kitchen I suppose.

If you do decide to collaborate with him, I'd suggest you make everything clear from the start, all your ideas and wishes. See how that goes. Not only during the project, before the projects starts. Good luck!
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Old 20.04.2021, 12:27
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Re: kitchen consultation... and customer...service?

I was pretty happy with the work done by Schubiger, I wouldn't bother with this guy you mention. Unfortunately, there are still plenty of craftsman in villages who know that people fear being stigmatised if they don't pick the "local guy" for their work. My recommendation is that you don't give a flying monkeys what the Hugentoblers think and choose a person you feel comfortable with.
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