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Old 08.06.2021, 15:36
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Copies of lost apartment key

Hi All,

I am coming to the end of my tenancy and a key i had hoped would show up hasn't.... Browsing these threads it sounds like i could be in for an expensive surprise. The key had no markings on it to show what address it was for and i assume was lost out in the city at some point.

- Any tips on getting one cut to replace it?
- is there any way to tell from the other copies of the key whether they can be freely copied?
- Do I need to contact the rental agency to get their authorisation to do so?
- If they say they want to replace locks etc (in my mind total overkill given it had nothing to associate it with my address) is there anything i can do to resist this or reduce this cost?

Thanks in advance for the tips
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Old 08.06.2021, 15:42
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

Check if there's any mention of it in your rental contract. A colleague of mine told me a few years ago he had spares cut in either France or Germany easily, and for a substantially more affordable price.
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Old 08.06.2021, 15:52
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

You're insurance will likely cover in worst case, all locks to be replaced..

But I've had them copied before in Geneva & Nyon just at regular key shops. No questions asked. I did this at the start of my lease in case I lost them later.
(Regular kaba style keys that open all the common doors, mailboxes etc)

Obviously results could vary from shop to shop. But I'd try that first, just try a few shops, ask for a copy, if they say no, try another one.
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Old 08.06.2021, 15:54
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Hi All,

I am coming to the end of my tenancy and a key i had hoped would show up hasn't.... Browsing these threads it sounds like i could be in for an expensive surprise. The key had no markings on it to show what address it was for and i assume was lost out in the city at some point.

- Any tips on getting one cut to replace it?
- is there any way to tell from the other copies of the key whether they can be freely copied?
- Do I need to contact the rental agency to get their authorisation to do so?
- If they say they want to replace locks etc (in my mind total overkill given it had nothing to associate it with my address) is there anything i can do to resist this or reduce this cost?

Thanks in advance for the tips
You have to inform the administration about a lost key. Every key has a serial number so they will be able to identify a copy. They will not agree for you to make a copy so if you do not have insurance this will cost a lot.
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Old 08.06.2021, 16:13
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

If you do need to replace, remember that you are only liable for the remainder portion of the life of the keys and locks, which is 30 years.

.
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Old 08.06.2021, 16:37
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Check if there's any mention of it in your rental contract. A colleague of mine told me a few years ago he had spares cut in either France or Germany easily, and for a substantially more affordable price.
Which is breaking the law, KABA keys are patent protected, copying one without permission is not allowed. Look after your keys, peeps, it's not hard.
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Old 08.06.2021, 18:30
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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- is there any way to tell from the other copies of the key whether they can be freely copied?
Is it numbered?

Tom
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Old 08.06.2021, 18:35
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Which is breaking the law, KABA keys are patent protected, copying one without permission is not allowed. Look after your keys, peeps, it's not hard.
Could you show me this law, I have looked but can't find it. The patent must have run out by now.
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Old 08.06.2021, 19:50
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Could you show me this law, I have looked but can't find it. The patent must have run out by now.
Does it say "PAT" anywhere on your key? If yes, then it is a patented design (such as the dormakaba Kaba Star) and I seriously hope you are capable of doing your own research into how patent law works.

Frankly, if you are not capable of looking after something as important as a house key (at the very least investing in one of those tags that sees your key returned if you lose it), then you deserve to pay a hefty price for your carelessness. If people copy keys willy-nilly, you put everyone in your building at unnecessary risk. Depending on how careless/callous past renters of your apartment were with copying and sharing their keys, you may suddenly have a stranger stood in your home. Or return to find yourself burglered with no proof of forced entry. Good luck explaining that to your insurance...
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Old 08.06.2021, 19:52
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Does it say "PAT" anywhere on your key? If yes, then it is a patented design and I seriously hope you are capable of doing your own research into how patent law works.

Frankly, if you are not capable of looking after something as important as a house key (at the very least investing in one of those tags that sees your key returned if you lose it), then you deserve to pay a hefty price for your carelessness. If people copy keys willy-nilly, you put everyone in your building at unnecessary risk. Depending on how careless/callous past renters of your apartment were with copying and sharing their keys, you may suddenly have a stranger stood in your home. Or return to find yourself burglered with no proof of forced entry. Good luck explaining that to your insurance...
However likely to have expired years ago..... Generally after 20 years. Look at drugs, after 20 years anyone can make a generic.
This is nothing to do with law, an owner of a patient has to defend their patient themselves.

The Kaba experT patent expired in 2020
The Kaba 20 Patent expires in 2033
Many others are out of patent so clearly can be copied without issue.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 08.06.2021 at 20:04.
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Old 08.06.2021, 20:06
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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However likely to have expired years ago..... Generally after 20 years. Look at drugs, after 20 years anyone can make a generic.
This is nothing to do with law, an owner of a patient has to defend their patient themselves.
There is thinking you are right because you perceive this to be the default setting and there is being right because you have the ability and integrity to check your facts... And the facts are that you are wrong. But since you couldn't be bothered to fact check yourself, I shan't tell you just how wrong.

ETA: Ah, so you DID bother and edited your post. There is usually also wording in contracts relating to copying keys, as in, don't do it without informing the landlord.
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Old 08.06.2021, 20:28
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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There is thinking you are right because you perceive this to be the default setting and there is being right because you have the ability and integrity to check your facts... And the facts are that you are wrong. But since you couldn't be bothered to fact check yourself, I shan't tell you just how wrong.

ETA: Ah, so you DID bother and edited your post. There is usually also wording in contracts relating to copying keys, as in, don't do it without informing the landlord.
I never saw that mentioned in any rental contract I signed. The landlord like you would assume it impossible because of the patent

Edit, Thinking about this more, the patent would apply to the design of the lock, where something that had never been done before & not obvious must occur. I cant see how a flat key with indentations could be re-patented.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 08.06.2021 at 20:44.
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Old 08.06.2021, 20:44
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

I have certainly had several kaba keys copied 'privately', as in at the local key cutters. Mister Minit if I remember correctly.

@bilko; being able to do this will depend on the age of the particular kaba key system; if it's an older one the local key cutter will be able to tell you if he has the correct blank, if not then you'll need to contact the letting agents.
If you can convince them that the key has been lost somewhere that'll make it impossible to be traceable to your flat you might get away with not being charged anything other than the price of a new key; #1 son lost his house key on a ski-slope and the regie/agent just sighed and issued another one.

PS: have you checked at your local Lost and Found? My keys were stolen from my bag a few years ago (crowded tram) and they turned up there a few days later.
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Old 08.06.2021, 21:11
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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I never saw that mentioned in any rental contract I signed. The landlord like you would assume it impossible because of the patent

Edit, Thinking about this more, the patent would apply to the design of the lock, where something that had never been done before & not obvious must occur. I cant see how a flat key with indentations could be re-patented.
Or they are under the mistaken impression that people understand the point of the rules and are responsible adults
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Old 08.06.2021, 21:15
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

If it's a numbered key, and you don't have the right number, you are screwed.

Tom
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Old 08.06.2021, 22:11
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Look after your keys, peeps, it's not hard.
This is right up there in the top 10 of helpful gems.

Almost as useful as - where do you last remember putting them?
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Old 08.06.2021, 22:22
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

I'd suggest that this is not a patent issue we're talking about here .. It's an agreement between manufacturers and service providers..

IE Kaba will supply official blank keys to mister minit on the understanding that they will only make copies for authorised persons. Up to the key shop if they honour that or just take the 30chf and make a copy anyways.

A patent might prevent a generic key-blank maker from making those blanks and selling them to mister minit as kaba .. But if that has expired there's no issue as long as they are not called kaba, just work the same.

A bit like how now we can buy a load of nesspresso compatible capsules in COOP.
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Old 08.06.2021, 22:27
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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Does it say "PAT" anywhere on your key? If yes, then it is a patented design (such as the dormakaba Kaba Star) and I seriously hope you are capable of doing your own research into how patent law works.

Frankly, if you are not capable of looking after something as important as a house key (at the very least investing in one of those tags that sees your key returned if you lose it), then you deserve to pay a hefty price for your carelessness. If people copy keys willy-nilly, you put everyone in your building at unnecessary risk. Depending on how careless/callous past renters of your apartment were with copying and sharing their keys, you may suddenly have a stranger stood in your home. Or return to find yourself burglered with no proof of forced entry. Good luck explaining that to your insurance...
And also your health matters so STOP GETTING MUGGED people. Jesus Christ, if you donít want all that pain of a knife wound just donít get mugged! Itís really not that complicated.
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Old 08.06.2021, 22:37
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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A bit like how now we can buy a load of nesspresso compatible capsules in COOP.
Clearly in Switzerland there are plenty of people who are quite happy to buy cheaper coffee capsules. I would assume there is a similar market for getting a non original copy of a key for a 15 year old lock, in the same way as people with an old car won't go to the main dealer the get the oil changed.
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Old 08.06.2021, 22:49
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Re: Copies of lost apartment key

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This is nothing to do with law, an owner of a patient has to defend their patient themselves.
I don't understand this line - these two points are not incompatible.

Patents are clearly defined in law.

But as with very many laws, the damaged party (i.e. patent holder) is the one who initiates proceedings; there isn't a government body to do it for them.
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