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Old 03.07.2021, 07:56
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Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

I have been looking usually for Einfamielenhäuser so that I can make music at home without having to think twice.

I looked at a condominium which only has neighbors below (none to the sides or above). I asked and they said that regarding technical information on sound between the units, that one could safely assume that the sound protection regulations for Stockwerkeigentum were followed for the construction and therefore I could look at those for info (Schallschutznormen von Stockwerkeigentum).

I am just wondering though if anyone has anecdotal experience with this. For example, if you're living in such a structure, what kind of sounds do you hear from above/below? I understand that families with screaming children who run around all the time, are not really a problem in these buildings? I guess there is just a massive amount of concrete between levels?

Basically my primary requirements would be playing piano and other acoustic instruments or (unamplified) singing, perhaps in a group. Not likely to have an entire horn section in my unit, or even horns in general, nor drums. More on the piano/orchestral/choral side of things. But of course it's nice to not feel limited.
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Old 03.07.2021, 11:57
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

I have been playing (amplified) music my whole life. Before I purchased my own house some 7 years ago, we rented a single-family 3 storey-house (ground floor where kitchen, living room, dining room were; first floor where all bedrooms and WCs were, and an attic with a bedroom), featuring a very large basement. I set up my practice room in the basement, and at one time I had a power-trio (guitar, drums and bass) play at very reasonable but amplified volume. It could easily be heard everywhere in the house (not loud, but loud enough to warrant neighbors complaining had we lived in a flat).

Since you’d be playing piano (where you can easily control volume) and unamplified vocals…my gut feeling tells me you may be fine.
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Old 03.07.2021, 12:02
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

I guess you could also consider renting a "hobby room" for your studio space. That's what I do. It has concrete walls and is located in the basement of an apartment building. Costs 100 CHF / month. But I also use sound-proofing foam on the walls. I don't play at a very high volume, though (and I also often just play and record directly into my computer, using headphones, with an acoustic pick-up on the cello, etc.). Not sure if such a thing would be possible with a piano, though. My synths just plug directly into the computer / soundcard.
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Old 03.07.2021, 12:10
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

apartments in Stockwerkeigentum do also have an official reglement which everyone needs to adhere to. so you might want to check that before you buy.

Personally I do not believe it has anything to do with renting or buying, but more about the building and how it was built. Older houses/apartments normally are not as sound proof, regardless if rent or buy. If you buy you of course have the option to improve that.
Please also consider the neighbors not in your building, what if you want to play music with the window open? at least in the city the sound will travel/echo quite far away. I can hear an (I think) Oboe player from 2 houses away, luckily a good player so sometimes I sit on the balcony to enjoy a free concert, but not everyone is like that.
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Old 03.07.2021, 12:36
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

I once lived below a bar pianist who fortunately, as is normal with bar pianists, worked evenings so typically I was out when he was practicing during the daytime.

But when I was at home I could hear it quite well, not very loud, but loud enough to hear it well. I never really had an issue with it.

Except the one time he was hammering "candle in the wind" all morning, obviously trying to work out the best speed and key to play it in.
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Old 03.07.2021, 12:47
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

Music during standard hours is allowed.

Tom
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Old 03.07.2021, 12:50
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

We have a cellist, 5 pianists, a trumpet player, a drummer, an electric guitar player, an electric bass player, 2 flutists - in our building within 4 families. Amplified and unamplified. I think looking for a rent in a place where there are already musicians renting makes all easier.

We also sometimes organize concerts on a balcony and in our windows, etc. So maybe ask in the local music school how easy it is to find a place to rent in a musical building?

Good luck and mͫeͤzzoͦfoͦrͬᴛⷮeͤ.
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Old 03.07.2021, 13:20
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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We have a cellist, 5 pianists, a trumpet player, a drummer, an electric guitar player, an electric bass player, 2 flutists - in our building within 4 families. Amplified and unamplified. I think looking for a rent in a place where there are already musicians renting makes all easier.

We also sometimes organize concerts on a balcony and in our windows, etc. So maybe ask in the local music school how easy it is to find a place to rent in a musical building?

Good luck and mͫeͤzzoͦfoͦrͬᴛⷮeͤ.
My ex was an Opera singer, you could hear her from the road, well before getting to the building
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Old 03.07.2021, 13:23
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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My ex was an Opera singer, you could hear her from the road, well before getting to the building
I had to tone my opera mornings down a bit..."Nooo, mom, no opera before noon". But quiet lil Puccini works.
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Old 03.07.2021, 14:09
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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IBut I also use sound-proofing foam on the walls.
Sidenote: unless you’re talking many cm thick special foam, the regular Noppenschaum (your typical 2mm to 10mm) is not sound-proofing, but rather sound-treatment. It only prevents the soundwaves from bouncing off the otherwise reflective surfaces, which we perceive as an endless echo. Think the way large, empty rooms sound. This doesn’t prevent the music from leaking off to the rest of the house/building.
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Old 03.07.2021, 16:20
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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I guess you could also consider renting a "hobby room" for your studio space. That's what I do. It has concrete walls and is located in the basement of an apartment building. Costs 100 CHF / month.
How can one find room like that?

I'd like to find a place for woodworking, lazy hobby version, so most of the time it's just about a relatively secure storage of tools.

Here in Berlin we have it on our balcony, and we informed our close neighbours to tell us if the day is bad (like they have a headache/guests or something, since all noise we make was 10-13 or 15-20h) and they told us just a few times they heard anything at all, usually only when we did cuts with the miter saw, if they were at home.

Much more times go to thinking about a project and preparing, than it takes to actually cut it
And we do one every several months or less often, so nothing intensive.

Our current setup is an "all sides in glass" balcony of 1.5 x 4m or something like that, so we definitely know how to be careful

However, I have a feeling that even intermittent usage as ours wouldn't be tolerated in a flat in CH, even though you're allowed to drill thing here and there in your flat durig permitted hours, but maybe I'm wrong?

But so far I haven't seen such balconies, and for sanding I definitely want to have 'non living room', so some hobby room / basement / garage would be great.
But I either don't know the term for searching or something else is on, I've seen just a few for music, but that's about it. ZH canton area. Maybe there isn't many?

So, how one can find such place, please share your tips
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Old 03.07.2021, 17:08
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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Sidenote: unless you’re talking many cm thick special foam, the regular Noppenschaum (your typical 2mm to 10mm) is not sound-proofing, but rather sound-treatment. It only prevents the soundwaves from bouncing off the otherwise reflective surfaces, which we perceive as an endless echo. Think the way large, empty rooms sound. This doesn’t prevent the music from leaking off to the rest of the house/building.
That's true. The stuff on the walls in our studio is about 5 - 7 cm thick. I'm not entirely sure how effective it is or isn't in terms of soundproofing, but the walls are concrete anyways, and so far... no complaints from anyone ("knock on wood").
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Old 03.07.2021, 17:16
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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How can one find room like that?

I'd like to find a place for woodworking, lazy hobby version, so most of the time it's just about a relatively secure storage of tools.

Here in Berlin we have it on our balcony, and we informed our close neighbours to tell us if the day is bad (like they have a headache/guests or something, since all noise we make was 10-13 or 15-20h) and they told us just a few times they heard anything at all, usually only when we did cuts with the miter saw, if they were at home.

Much more times go to thinking about a project and preparing, than it takes to actually cut it
And we do one every several months or less often, so nothing intensive.

Our current setup is an "all sides in glass" balcony of 1.5 x 4m or something like that, so we definitely know how to be careful

However, I have a feeling that even intermittent usage as ours wouldn't be tolerated in a flat in CH, even though you're allowed to drill thing here and there in your flat durig permitted hours, but maybe I'm wrong?

But so far I haven't seen such balconies, and for sanding I definitely want to have 'non living room', so some hobby room / basement / garage would be great.
But I either don't know the term for searching or something else is on, I've seen just a few for music, but that's about it. ZH canton area. Maybe there isn't many?

So, how one can find such place, please share your tips
Are you looking for a place in Berlin or in the canton of Zurich, CH? I'm not sure about how to go about finding a "hobbyraum" in Berlin (what websites are used there), but here in Switzerland, hobbyraums are usually listed on the main websites, such as homegate.ch, that people use to find a new apartment or house, etc. I think the term used here might also be "Bastelraum."

After just doing a search online, here is one website that seems to list some that are currently available in Zurich (though this might be the city of Zurich rather than the entire canton):

https://www.home.ch/en/rent/f/apartm...canton-zurich/
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Old 04.07.2021, 18:26
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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Are you looking for a place in Berlin or in the canton of Zurich, CH? I'm not sure about how to go about finding a "hobbyraum" in Berlin (what websites are used there), but here in Switzerland, hobbyraums are usually listed on the main websites, such as homegate.ch, that people use to find a new apartment or house, etc. I think the term used here might also be "Bastelraum."

After just doing a search online, here is one website that seems to list some that are currently available in Zurich (though this might be the city of Zurich rather than the entire canton):

https://www.home.ch/en/rent/f/apartm...canton-zurich/
Yeah, sorry, I'm asking for terms how to find it in the canton Zurich, once we move there, for Berlin our balcony suffices I've edited and reread that post so many times that I probably just didn't notice what crucial I've deleted.

So terms I have to use are hobbyraum, bastelraum?

I was also looking at garages which are closed and have one door, I think the term was box garage? But I think I've seen just a few, and no clue about access to the electricity, while in something called hobbyraum I guess electricity would be a given?

Thanks, I'll keep digging
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Old 04.07.2021, 19:19
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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Yeah, sorry, I'm asking for terms how to find it in the canton Zurich, once we move there, for Berlin our balcony suffices I've edited and reread that post so many times that I probably just didn't notice what crucial I've deleted.

So terms I have to use are hobbyraum, bastelraum?

I was also looking at garages which are closed and have one door, I think the term was box garage? But I think I've seen just a few, and no clue about access to the electricity, while in something called hobbyraum I guess electricity would be a given?

Thanks, I'll keep digging
In Zürich there are several Gemeinschaftszentren - community centers - some of which offer a woodworking space for hobby woodworkers. (Other hobby spaces as well.) Some offer courses, some just space, some both.

For instance, GZ Bachwiesen:

https://gz-zh.ch/gz-bachwiesen/angebote/holzwerkstatt/

While you are searching for an individual space, getting involved in a GZ might be an interim solution.



Others do as well
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Old 04.07.2021, 20:16
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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In Zürich there are several Gemeinschaftszentren - community centers - some of which offer a woodworking space for hobby woodworkers. (Other hobby spaces as well.) Some offer courses, some just space, some both.

For instance, GZ Bachwiesen:

https://gz-zh.ch/gz-bachwiesen/angebote/holzwerkstatt/

While you are searching for an individual space, getting involved in a GZ might be an interim solution.
Thanks!

Yeah, I can see how they might come in handy if we need to do something but don't have our space yet.

This what you shared and Pancakes earlier will hopefully help us figure out the long term solution. I really would like to keep that hobby in lazy running mode, and not to not ever see those tools again.
I prefer using mine, I'm always anxious when using someone else's equipment and instantly I get 10x clumsier which then increases insecurity and anxiety. Crazy
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Old 04.07.2021, 20:25
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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Thanks!

Yeah, I can see how they might come in handy if we need to do something but don't have our space yet.

This what you shared and Pancakes earlier will hopefully help us figure out the long term solution. I really would like to keep that hobby in lazy running mode, and not to not ever see those tools again.
I prefer using mine, I'm always anxious when using someone else's equipment and instantly I get 10x clumsier which then increases insecurity and anxiety. Crazy
If you find an apt. with own laundry room (ideally hobby room too but....) you can convert it to a woodwork atelier. Or find a space you can co-rent. It is not that expensive.

As for music...I have a friend who is (more like an "was" these days) an opera singer and she really needs her practice but had neighbours complaining she's practicing too much lol.
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Old 04.07.2021, 21:21
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

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Yeah, sorry, I'm asking for terms how to find it in the canton Zurich, once we move there, for Berlin our balcony suffices I've edited and reread that post so many times that I probably just didn't notice what crucial I've deleted.

So terms I have to use are hobbyraum, bastelraum?

I was also looking at garages which are closed and have one door, I think the term was box garage? But I think I've seen just a few, and no clue about access to the electricity, while in something called hobbyraum I guess electricity would be a given?

Thanks, I'll keep digging
Yeah, I would think that most bastelraums / hobbyraums here probably have electricity, but I guess I can't say for sure. I know ours does, though.

We have an apartment with a garden and (theoretically) could probably do work-working out there, using power tools. But it isn't something I would want to do extremely often, for fear of annoying the neighbors.
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Old 05.07.2021, 11:28
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Re: Making music in a Stockwerkeigentum

Careful when renting Bastelraum for music or other noise: the contract of mine explicitly forbids me from playing music or doing noisy things in there. There is only one apartment directly above it and the caretaker has his space next door, so if I did choose to make noise, I would check with them first / do it on a Saturday afternoon.

However, I'm sure that one can check this easily in advance. I imagine that those hobby rooms that are underground with no windows have greater flexibility.
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