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  #21  
Old 07.07.2021, 12:38
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

It's a desirable property, but not our dream place, therefore we are not prepared to risk taking over someone else's problem.



So it needs to be vacant possession, or we walk away.
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Old 07.07.2021, 12:41
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

From how you write I assume it is important to you that these grandparents leave.

On the other hand, if you don't actually need those rooms it is pleasant to have a source of rental income, plus maybe somebody keeping an eye on things when you're travelling.
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Old 07.07.2021, 14:09
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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From how you write I assume it is important to you that these grandparents leave.

On the other hand, if you don't actually need those rooms it is pleasant to have a source of rental income, plus maybe somebody keeping an eye on things when you're travelling.
Pretty much. We do plan to use the space for visiting family and friends.

And we would have to share common basement facilities such as garage and washroom. Sure, if the best case scenario eventuated, great, but we need to imagine the worst case...not a risk we are prepared to take.

I agree with the rental income, but here we have no real chance to vet the tenants.
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Old 07.07.2021, 16:32
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

can you make the purchase contingent on them being out by the end of 2022? you can have the transfer take place around that date and pay a token rent until then e.g. 1000 a month. that way it is the seller's problem if they don't move out.
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Old 07.07.2021, 17:01
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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can you make the purchase contingent on them being out by the end of 2022? you can have the transfer take place around that date and pay a token rent until then e.g. 1000 a month. that way it is the seller's problem if they don't move out.
It's still a gamble...this level of investment requires more certainty and self-determination!
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Old 07.07.2021, 17:25
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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So it needs to be vacant possession, or we walk away.
Wise decision.

A cautionary tale from several years ago:

We were surprised when a house we looked at turned out to have a tenant. Told the agent we were not interested in taking the tenant on, he said 'No problem, the owner has already given the tenant notice'.

Well, by this time I had learned enough to know to never trust anything an agent says, so I dug a bit further.

True, the seller had indeed given the tenant notice... over 5 years earlier.

The tenant refused to move out. It went into mediation, the mediator found in favor of the owner but gave the tenant an additional two years to move out. Tenant still refused to move. The owner then went back to mediation (or maybe to court, can't remember the which) who again found in favor of the landlord but again gave the tenant another two years.

I have no idea what the next step would have been.

We ran, not walked, away.

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I say keep searching.

Good luck!
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Old 07.07.2021, 17:47
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

Swiss estate agents make used car salesmen look good. Doubt everything they say and tell them to put it in writing (they won’t). They care nothing for you, just their usurious commission.
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Old 07.07.2021, 18:50
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

Idk if this is legal in Switzerland or even possible. Could you put a clause in the contract that puts aside some sum of money from the sale in an account(similar to accounts that hold security deposit) and if they have not left by the end of 2022, that sum would be given to you? If they do move out, the money goes to the current owners?
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  #29  
Old 07.07.2021, 19:01
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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Swiss estate agents make used car salesmen look good. Doubt everything they say and tell them to put it in writing (they won’t). They care nothing for you, just their usurious commission.
Are used care salesmen, or estate agents, in other countries, up-front, informative, open and honest, and do they not say things that they would not commit to writing, and do they care for their potential buyers more than for their own commission? In other words, is this really a Swiss phenomenon?
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  #30  
Old 07.07.2021, 19:04
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

I would have thought that a 50% retention until there is vacant position, hardly a risk for the seller if they are telling the truth.
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  #31  
Old 07.07.2021, 19:12
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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Are used care salesmen, or estate agents, in other countries, up-front, informative, open and honest, and do they not say things that they would not commit to writing, and do they care for their potential buyers more than for their own commission? In other words, is this really a Swiss phenomenon?
Irrelevant, I was only taking about the slime-buckets that infest our fair country. How could I possibly comment of other countries?

Just a couple of examples.

1. An agent grabbed the details of our sale from our agents web-site and published them on their own web-site. They then contacted us saying they would sell our house at 8% commission. We had to threaten legal action before they backed off.

2. We negotiated with our tenants for them to buy our rental property. Our agent, who was the rental agency who we were obliged to use, told the tenants that they were paying too much and we would agree to a lower price. Well, we wouldn’t.
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  #32  
Old 08.07.2021, 11:23
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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Are used care salesmen, or estate agents, in other countries, up-front, informative, open and honest, and do they not say things that they would not commit to writing, and do they care for their potential buyers more than for their own commission? In other words, is this really a Swiss phenomenon?
Certainly there are slime-buckets in all countries.

A difference in Switzerland, though, is weak consumer protection in purchasing property that leaves a buyer in a more vulnerable position than I have experienced elsewhere. In my home state, for instance, a Realtor has a fiduciary duty to his or her client - and there are legal remedies if that is breached.

Other reasons why one brings a long spoon when supping with an estate agent here:

First, the stakes are higher. A 500K house back home versus 5 million in Switzerland - as either a buyer or seller one stands to be injured to a greater extent by an unscrupulous agent.

Second, the market in much of Switzerland is so dry that an agent representing a desireable property can behave egregiously and a buyer will have to put up with it if one is to have a hope of being invited to see the property. The agent holds most of the cards.

And thirdly, our old favorite: Selber schuld. There are few remedies when one has been screwed - or even merely badly served - because the overarching societal premise is that it's your own fault for not having seen it coming. When 'selber schuld' underpins most interactions, it would be the height of naivety to trust the other party.

My experience: Elsewhere one may run into a shark - but in the Swiss property market today, there be dragons.
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  #33  
Old 08.07.2021, 19:36
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

I feel for the grandparents. It seems to me there must be a reason why they can't be out before Feb 2022.

If it were me and I liked the house I would arrange to meet with the grandparents face to face and see what their situation is. Why would they want to share a house with strangers?

I really don't get how the home owners think a buyer wants to assume their tenants and share facilities.

Is the house in an area where the zoning allows for 2 family homes?

Also, does the Eigenmietwert reflect the fact that part of the house is rented out? Rental income must be declared as income. Do the grandparents have a rental contract which you have seen?
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Old 09.07.2021, 10:45
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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It's a desirable property, but not our dream place, therefore we are not prepared to risk taking over someone else's problem.



So it needs to be vacant possession, or we walk away.
Even if it was my dream house, I wouldn't take it with a couple of tenants I know nothing about. The fact that they couldn't agree to move, considering the owners are their own relatives, should be a clear signal you're very likely to find them very difficult to live with (under the same roof, sharing facilities and garden etc), even for a while. Everything is so expensive here that it's just not worth buying something that you're not confident it's the right place for you.
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Old 09.07.2021, 20:33
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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I feel for the grandparents. It seems to me there must be a reason why they can't be out before Feb 2022.

If it were me and I liked the house I would arrange to meet with the grandparents face to face and see what their situation is. Why would they want to share a house with strangers?
I really don't get how the home owners think a buyer wants to assume their tenants and share facilities.
Is the house in an area where the zoning allows for 2 family homes?
Also, does the Eigenmietwert reflect the fact that part of the house is rented out? Rental income must be declared as income. Do the grandparents have a rental contract which you have seen?

I feel for the grandparents as well, but we are not prepared to make compromises on a 2.Mio investment we cannot ring fence.



The grandparents supposedly pay 1700chf per month (quite a lot for a single-bedroom flat), they don't have a lot of furniture. A quick search of homegate came up with 2 apartments in the area for around that amount.



I would say that the lack of vacant possession is deterring buyers and/or suppressing bids by around 100-200K. That's at least 4-5 years rent for the grandparents. So it if the family can't (or won't) subsidise the grandparent's relocation then only is it raising a red flag, but also they are losing out financially.
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  #36  
Old 09.07.2021, 21:09
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

If the grandparent's enter into a fixed-term rental agreement (with the right to exit early) you should be covered. Rental law does not provide for any rent extension in case of fixed term rental contracts (only in case of open-ended contracts in which case an extension of up to 4 years could be achieved). Yes, it might take some time to actually get them evicted if they do not leave voluntarily but that is a comparatively short time frame...

So if it is depressing the price by 100-200K and you get half a years rent to boot... might make sense to get a lawyer to have a look at it.

... also on the topic of "sharing a house with strangers"... I rent and am stuck with my neighbours (who are all very nice!) for longer than it would take for a fixed term contract to expire and an eviction to take place.
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Old 09.07.2021, 21:18
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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Yes, it might take some time to actually get them evicted if they do not leave voluntarily but that is a comparatively short time frame...

And during this "relatively short time frame" we would have to share an entrance, garage, storage, washroom, yard and pool with legal adversaries? Unless you are talking days, no thanks...
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  #38  
Old 10.07.2021, 10:10
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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... also on the topic of "sharing a house with strangers"... I rent and am stuck with my neighbours (who are all very nice!) for longer than it would take for a fixed term contract to expire and an eviction to take place.
At this price (2 million, which I admit - is not even that much for CH but still...), if the owners want to sell they should fix their prior commitments in a clear and unequivocal way, not to pass their problem on to the next owners who literally have no (moral ) obligation to fix other people's messy family relations.
I assume people want to own their home as opposed to renting exactly for the feeling of freedom and not owing anyone any explanation - why you wash your clothes at midnight and not at noon, etc etc etc.
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Old 10.07.2021, 10:36
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

It sounds like there may have been a toxic relationship between the parents and grandparents. If you want the house, tell them the grandparents need to be out by a set date. As an owner, you have the right to do that anyway, especially if you are planning on using the second flat for your own use.

Make sure their eviction notice is part of the contract.
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Old 10.07.2021, 11:02
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Re: Is it too risky to buy a partially occupied property?

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Make sure their eviction notice is part of the contract.
...and also fully completed eviction achieved, by that specified date, without which the deal is off, at no cost to the potential buyer.

Although I think Litespeed has already decided to walk way.
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