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  #21  
Old 16.08.2021, 20:31
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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True .

But maybe there is somebody who has legitimate access by her permission . Maybe a good friend who waters the flowers or feeds the goldfish while she’s on vacation . Or maybe her son or something like that . And this person got mistaken for some Troublesome neighbor by a witness
If that is the case and PhilMCR started this thread for fun, he should be banned.
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  #22  
Old 16.08.2021, 20:36
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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I fear that this is not legally enforceable.

of course in an ideal world, the tenant would inform the landlord of his/her concerns, the landlord would be very apologetic and offer the return of all keys, or the installation of a new cylinder. However, I doubt that the tenant can legally demand this.

It is worth mentioning here that if the tenant changes the lock, she/he is theoretically in breach of contract, as this would constitute a bauliche Massnahme
Streng genommen ist dies unzulässig, denn es handelt sich um eine bauliche Massnahme, die nach Art. 260a OR der schriftlichen Zustimmung des Vermieters bedarf. Wird die Massnahme geduldet, muss sie vor dem Auszug rückstandsfrei rückgängig machen. Wer sich also dafür entscheidet, muss den ursprünglichen Schlosszylinder bei Auszug wieder einbauen und sollte ihn dazu gut aufbewahren.
Strictly speaking, this is inadmissible, because it is a structural measure that requires the written consent of the landlord according to Art. 260a OR. If the measure is tolerated, it must be reversed without residue before moving out. Anyone who decides to do so must therefore reinstall the original lock cylinder when moving out and should keep it safe for this purpose.
https://www.vertragshilfe.ch/hausfriedensbruch/
Keeping the original lock cylinder in a safe place and putting it back before leaving sounds like a very minor inconvenience to me. Should be 2 mins of work to change the cylinder and another two minutes to change it back.
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  #23  
Old 16.08.2021, 20:37
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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If that is the case and PhilMCR started this thread for fun, he should be banned.
That would suggest that you're even more cynical than I am. Which is hard to believe.
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  #24  
Old 16.08.2021, 20:45
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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you'd have to prove it. Get forensics in? Could be very costly.

You have to pay personally for Police work here? No wonder the crime rate is so low!
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  #25  
Old 16.08.2021, 20:46
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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If that is the case and PhilMCR started this thread for fun, he should be banned.
He should be banned for not posting this on a Friday? That's harsh.
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Old 16.08.2021, 20:53
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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You have to pay personally for Police work here? No wonder the crime rate is so low!
Somebody broke into my basement once without actually taking anything as far as I could see.

The person was arrested many months later in an unconnected incident and the fingerprints were found to match.

The prosecution was dropped however as the prosecutor said seeing nothing was damaged or stolen I had no damages to press, and the person (who was an illegal foreigner) was being deported anyway for a different reason. They said I could take it up as a private case if I liked but they advised me against it as the person had no money and there was nothing i could recover in compensation.
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  #27  
Old 16.08.2021, 21:16
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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That would suggest that you're even more cynical than I am. Which is hard to believe.
Being the "my home is my castle"-type, this thread hit a nerve.
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  #28  
Old 16.08.2021, 21:17
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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Strange situation, a friend of mine discovered that a neighbour (A) has a key to her apartment and had entered when she was out. She knows as a neighbour (B) in the building saw it and the person (A)did not deny when confronted about it.

Leaving aside discussions with the building owner about retrieving keys and changing locks, she now questions whether to get the police involved.

1. Given that she has no proof other than the word of a neighbour, how likely is any action to succeed.
2. If she were to succeed. What is the likely fine/punishment for the neighbour?
(A) and (B) inserted by me, for clarity.

Well, you've had a lot of answers about the building owner, retrieving keys and changing locks. Yes, she should go ahead with those, without delay, as described in the many good suggestions.

To your immediate questions:

1.
If Frau Neighbour-who-saw (B) is to be trusted (generally reasonable and sane, not known as a trouble-maker) then a simple letter, addressed by her to your neighbour would do very well.

Dear Frau Phil_MCR's-Friend,

This is just to confirm what I told you yesterday, DATE.

Last Thursday DATE, at 18h40, I was very surprised to see Mr Other-Neighbour (A) leave your apartment and lock your door with a key. I did not know, before then, that he had a key. He was carrying a white plastic bag.

Because I had never heard from you that Mr Other-Neighbour
(A) would, for example, be looking after your plants or mail while you were out, I asked him directly why he had a key to your apartment. He told me that...
  • "Frau Name, who lived here before Frau Phil_MCR's-Friend, gave it to us, and we always check that everything's in order," /
  • "Frau Phil_MCR's-Friend gave it to me and asked me to switch on the lights while she is away." /
  • "I just do, and it's none of your business".
and walked away.

When we spoke, I understood from you that you did not give Mr Other-Neighbour
(A) a key, at all, and also did not know that he had a key.

For your information, Herr Other-Old-Neighbour-from-Downstairs has lived in this building for over 30 years, and he may know something about any arrangement that could explain this. I have not asked him, though.

You are welcome to show this letter to our landlord, and/or to the police, if you need to. Please let me know the outcome, because I am now concerned that Mr Other-Neighbour
(A) might have a key to my apartment, too, and am considering writing to the landlord, myself.

Thank you and kind regards

(B)


2.
If she were to succeed... at what? I think that such a letter would be good evidence, but towards what end? The landlord should change the lock on your friend's apartment door, and on her letterbox. With that, the main remedial action will have been taken. Perhaps, the landlord should pursue the matter to find out whether Mr Other-Neighbour (A) has any other keys, or should change the locks on all the apartments, just in case, especially that of Frau Neighbour-who-saw, (B) if she requests it.

If you mean criminal charges, well, that would be unlawful entry, and possibly theft. These are crimes that are not necessarily prosecuted (von Amtes wegen), but fall into the category of lesser crimes that are dealt with only if someone lays a formal charge.

Interestingly, the part of the law that deals with this:
Unlawful Entry
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/5.../lvl_d6610e559

falls under the section title
Felonies and Misdemeanors against Liberty
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/5...n#book_2/tit_4
Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a building, an apartment, a self-contained room within a building, an enclosed area, courtyard or garden forming a direct part of a building, or a clearly demarcated workplace or, despite requests from the lawful occupants to leave, remains in such a location, shall be liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
This means that the police and prosecutors will do nothing, unless your friend lays a formal complaint.

If she does, then, after the wheels have turned for a while, if Mr Other-Neighbour [/COLOR] (A) is found guilty, his sentence will either be a fine (no info given here on the amount) or max. three years.

The degree of the punishment will depend upon such matters as whether your friend found anything to have been disturbed in or removed from her appartment, but also upon the man's explanation of why he entered her apartment. If he is, for example, simple-minded, and his parents always looked after the plants of the former tenant in that apartment, he may have thought that was his role in life, and just continued on dutifully. In such a case, his punishment would be mild. If, on the other hand, he already has some record for creepy behaviour, the punishment would be more serious.

If the explanation is anything other than some simple misunderstanding, then the landlord might be persuaded to give (A) notice. Even if the landlord will not, your friend can issue a Hausverbot (declaration that he is not allowed into her premises) but she can declare this as only her letterbox, her doorbell, her apartment door and lock, and her apartment, but she cannot declare that he is not allowed in the building, unless the landlord agrees.

In any event, as amogles explained, there will hardly be any grounds for her to claim any material compensation from him, unless he damaged her possessions. As you know, moneys paid to make up for pain and suffering are unusual, in Switzerland.
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  #29  
Old 16.08.2021, 22:46
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

thanks no damage caused. friend considers taking legal action to put guy on notice and discourage further such activity, but weighs it against the hassle of doing so and maybe things getting worse if she loses.
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  #30  
Old 16.08.2021, 22:47
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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You have to pay personally for Police work here? No wonder the crime rate is so low!
Amtliche Kosten, Verfahrenskosten

https://www.handelszeitung.ch/politi...richter-866816
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  #31  
Old 16.08.2021, 23:20
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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thanks no damage caused. friend considers taking legal action to put guy on notice and discourage further such activity, but weighs it against the hassle of doing so and maybe things getting worse if she loses.
Your friend might be able to get advice on this from the local police. I think she is more likely to be able to have a good conversation about this if she
  • already speaks the local language or, if not, takes someone along who does
  • takes someone with her, anyway, who will stay calm and helpful
  • has obtained a letter from the neighbour-witness (B)
  • has already taken all the proper steps, as outlined above, to do with formally writing to her landlord, and getting the landlord to change the locks, without delay.

All of these help to show that she's the rational, sane, reserved person trying to do the right thing. She does not want to be labelled as the crazy one.

She should tell the police what happened and that she'now uncertain whether or not to lay a charge against him, and what would be most effective, to be able to live life in peace. Ask the police officer to explain to her how the steps would work, exactly, and how long each step takes if - and make sure that the police know that that is still a big "if" - she were to decide to proceed.

Also, ask about a Hausverbot, and what it does and does not mean. It does not require laying any charge, but is simply a formal letter from her to him. Ask what they think she should do, if he comes too close to her or her flat, and whether they think a Hausverbot would be helpful, then.

She should be sure that she knows his full name, so that she can name him while speaking to the police.

If she can keep the conversation going for a while, she might get the police to make a file note that she came in, concerned, asking for advice. Whether or not, she should in any event ask for their contact details and then, a few days later, write a thank you note for their explanations that were, as far as she understood, the following.... Then, her letter will have to go on file, somewhere.

If the man is already known, the police are not likely to tell her, but if she mentions his name, in person and again when she writes her thank you letter, it will trigger them to have a look at his record. Then, if she goes by again after another few weeks, she can ask for their advice, again, and it might have changed.
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  #32  
Old 17.08.2021, 00:16
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

Maybe witnessing neighbour speaks the local lingo & would be willing to accompany affected friend to the police station.

Is your friend new to the building?
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  #33  
Old 17.08.2021, 02:04
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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Maybe witnessing neighbour speaks the local lingo & would be willing to accompany affected friend to the police station.

Is your friend new to the building?
Yes, that's an idea, but choose this witnessing neighbour only if she can be trusted to stay calm and polite, throughout. I recommended that the friend take along one person who will be rational and factual because the police will, to start with, take the query just one more "neighbour-neighbour squabble full of he-said-she-said".

OP's friend, by being there at all, is (genuinely) trying to find advice, but should also be trying to stay at that counter long enough to show that she's the sane one of the bunch. For this latter reason, she should probably not press charges right then and there, but jot down the main points of the police officer, thank them and say she's going to go away and think about this advice, to try to decide what would be wisest, and feel safest, for her.

In any event: get the First and Family Name of the officer, (write it down in front of him/her, and state the date and time of the conversation) and ideally a direct mail address, or at least the postal/street address of the police station - for her letter of thanks, afterwards.

A police officer with many decades of service taught me this. It's called laying the groundwork for building - if case it is ever needed - the "fat file". It can be very useful if, anyone else ever needs to be involved.

For example, in the event that the landlord doesn't want to do anything. Having been to the police, OP's friend could then write to the landlord explaining that she had been to the police to ask for advice since she doesn't want anyone intruding into her flat, and there Police Officer Name on Date, had advised her that it was the landlord's responsibility to change the locks, and that she was in discussion with the police while she was considering the other legal options against the intrusive neighbour. She sends a copy of that letter to the police (visibly, to the landlord). Later, when the landlord changes the locks, she can write to the police to thank them for their ongoing advice, and to update them with the good news that the landlord has done so (with a copy to the landlord).

This might all be resolved quickly. But if it drags on or if more parties join the matter, it will be very good if she has set the right foundation to the matter, in the files.
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  #34  
Old 17.08.2021, 10:05
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

This happened to me once. I discovered, after returning from holiday, that there was a long black hair (my hair in those days was short and fair) on the wash basin under the bathroom mirror. Clearly someone had been in the apartment.
However, buried in the contract I had signed, the Hauswart was entitled to hold a key. It was worded in such a way that it looked like a standard contract clause so I did not expect it would actually be used. The Hauswart lived in the neighbouring house and his wife had long, black hair. I didn't feel the need to pursue the matter.
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  #35  
Old 17.08.2021, 12:12
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

There are rare times when owners can actually save you damage by entering without first receiving permission, for example to close a window during a storm. However, the owners should tell the renters what they have done for the sake of transparency.
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  #36  
Old 17.08.2021, 12:29
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

I think the first question should be how he got the key, or where. Unless you stop that hole whatever she does may well be futile.

For instance, I've seen old apartment door locks that can easily be opened from outside, the lock cover was held in place by screws that could be unscrewed from the outside like any other screw.

For the 2nd point, legal action, you need solid proof.
As things stand it's the other neighbor's testimony against his denial, and s/he didn't even see him enter, just lock the door. Not denying may be enough in personal relations but it's not enough for the legal system. So it's one claim against another, that should be far from enough for a verdict, probably not even enough for the prosecution to open a case.

It would take actual proof.
Like cctv footage taken with motion-activated cameras (I'd probably have them installed anyway in her situation, independent of changing locks, just for peace of mind).

As for a punishment in case of a guilty verdict, there won't be mandatory prison if it's the first time. Expect a fine, possibly (partially) "auf Bewährung" (probational?). Without theft and damage I wouldn't bet on a prison sentence, and if there is one it'll be "auf Bewährung" for first-time offenders.

Last edited by Urs Max; 17.08.2021 at 12:44.
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  #37  
Old 17.08.2021, 15:10
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

What Urs Max said. I agree with all the points in that post.

Except this:
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As things stand it's the other neighbor's testimony against his denial,
As I understand it, he has not denied, on the contrary:
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...the person did not deny when confronted about it.
We don't know, though, who confronted him, and what reason he gave, if any, for his behaviour.
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Old 17.08.2021, 15:20
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

The lack of context being given would indicate something is off in what is being shared with us here, that there are details not being revealed, because they'd muddy the water.


I don't think blindly advising is useful, when simple answers to posed questions could be given to clear some of this up. There's a reason for the lack of transparency, I would guess. It seems like the full story isn't being told, and we'd need it to advise as well as possible.
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Old 17.08.2021, 15:43
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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The lack of context being given would indicate something is off in what is being shared with us here, that there are details not being revealed, because they'd muddy the water.


I don't think blindly advising is useful, when simple answers to posed questions could be given to clear some of this up. There's a reason for the lack of transparency, I would guess. It seems like the full story isn't being told, and we'd need it to advise as well as possible.
as per the OP, i didn't want to go into the details behind it, just to understand what is the range/likely punishment for illegal entry without damage.
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Old 17.08.2021, 15:45
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Re: Illegal entry to apartment

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As I understand it, he has not denied, on the contrary:
Hearsay is worthless, what will count is his testimony, assuming he answers that questionl
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