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Old 16.08.2021, 23:31
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Swiss Mortgage long-term

Could someone please enlighten me as to how Swiss mortgage works after you've held it for some years? I've heard that unlike other countries where they give you X years to repay your principal amount (say, 30 years) here in CH they do something peculiar. For instance, this how Expatica website explains it (https://www.expatica.com/ch/housing/...ages-108440/):
"Swiss mortgages are unusual in that they are usually divided into two mortgages.
The first mortgage will typically:
Cover around 60-65% of the purchase price
Have an indefinite repayment period
The second mortgage will typically:
Cover around 15% of the purchase price
Have a fixed repayment period, usually around 15 years. So you will pay off about 1% of the mortgage each year for the first 15 years.
So, peculiarly, the focus is on paying off the second Swiss mortgage rather than the first. Many Swiss homeowners never fully pay off their first mortgage."

?? So you never finish paying that 65%? How is this possible? Who pays it then?

The guy from my bank sings a similar tune: "Most people in Switzerland never repay their houses. You only have to pay 65% in the first 15 years, then you only pay the interest, so the apartment is very cheap for you". But he cannot explain it properly either (the guy is just a VP for the bank, I guess it takes a CEO to explain it...).

Sounds like a free breakfast? What am I missing? Yes, I know, there is this kind of mortgage where you don't even try to repay the principal, only the interest. Then in 30 years you simply give the house to the bank. But I am not interested about this option. I want a normal mortgage which I eventually repay and get to keep the property. So how many years do I have for this?
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Old 16.08.2021, 23:51
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

The first mortgage is an interest ownly mortgage where you never repay the principal and end up paying interest forever (great for the bank). You can agree an amortization rate/number of years to pay back with your specific bank.
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Old 17.08.2021, 00:01
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

If you have the cash nothing stops you to pay off your loan or part of it when time comes for refinance.
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Old 17.08.2021, 07:28
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

Referring to the non-amortised part (60-65%), you can "sell" the interest-only mortgage with the property, or take it with you to the next (subject to the lender's approval).

Currently, with interest rates below 1% this is an incredible way to live beyond ones means.

Beware that in the event of selling up and leaving CH before the end of the mortgage term you may well be liable for the interest on the remaining period...
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Old 17.08.2021, 08:02
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

But at the Libor-like Saron mortgage is also very low. UBS is offering 0.8% and with their version I can pay of the capital with one months notice, or convert it to an UBS fixed term at any time. Other lenders have even lower rates.

At the time I arranged that UBS was asking 0.9% for a 10 year fixed rate.

Yes there is a risk as the rate isn’t fixed, they can increase it on 3 months notice.

fook, you also need to look at the tax benefits you gain from having some capital owing. There are many threads here on that, just do a search.
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Old 17.08.2021, 08:31
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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But at the Libor-like Saron mortgage is also very low. UBS is offering 0.8% and with their version I can pay of the capital with one months notice, or convert it to an UBS fixed term at any time. Other lenders have even lower rates.

At the time I arranged that UBS was asking 0.9% for a 10 year fixed rate.

Yes there is a risk as the rate isn’t fixed, they can increase it on 3 months notice.

fook, you also need to look at the tax benefits you gain from having some capital owing. There are many threads here on that, just do a search.
The tax benefit notion has been debunked several times. It’s getting almost as boring to prove it wrong as it is to see the same nonsense parroted time and time again.

In certain edge cases where the mortgage is higher than the taxable value of the property and you have significant additional wealth, it’s possible that this pay reduce your wealth tax (which is generally a smaller number in the overall scheme of things).

Getting a tax deduction on your mortgage interest is nice, but it only saves you money to pay the interest if your marginal tax rate is over 100%. Imputed rental value is a red herring, as you would pay it regardless of whether you have a mortgage or not.

The real advantage to not paying down the mortgage is that you can invest the capital elsewhere with a higher expected return than the mortgage interest. This is not without risk of course.

The bigger risks with not paying it off (and not having sufficient capital to do so) is that if your income falls in retirement, you may not meet the affordability requirements to re-mortgage or if interest rates increase causing a decrease in your discretionary budget and a reduction in quality of life.
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Old 17.08.2021, 08:38
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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The tax benefit notion has been debunked several times. It’s getting almost as boring to prove it wrong as it is to see the same nonsense parroted time and time again.

In certain edge cases where the mortgage is higher than the taxable value of the property and you have significant additional wealth, it’s possible that this pay reduce your wealth tax (which is generally a smaller number in the overall scheme of things).
Have to disagree on that. For several years we had negative wealth figures on the tax return because the value the commune put on our property is lower than the mortgage on it. And we by no means have significant additional wealth. It was only when we had to add in the UK house valuations to the Swiss tax return that we began to have wealth tax to pay.
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Old 17.08.2021, 08:50
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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Have to disagree on that. For several years we had negative wealth figures on the tax return because the value the commune put on our property is lower than the mortgage on it. And we by no means have significant additional wealth. It was only when we had to add in the UK house valuations to the Swiss tax return that we began to have wealth tax to pay.
You’re agreeing with what I’m saying. If you are under the wealth tax threshold it is irrelevant whether your property and mortgage combo give you negative wealth, as you have no tax to pay. It is unlikely that any saving you could make on the wealth tax is more than offset by the interest payments you make to the bank.
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Old 17.08.2021, 09:51
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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Have to disagree on that. For several years we had negative wealth figures on the tax return because the value the commune put on our property is lower than the mortgage on it. And we by no means have significant additional wealth. It was only when we had to add in the UK house valuations to the Swiss tax return that we began to have wealth tax to pay.
the valuation has nothing to do with the mortgage. if you had cash equal to the mortgage and used it to pay off the mortgage, the valuation would stay the same and wealth taxes stay the same.
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Old 17.08.2021, 10:58
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

The swiss buying and financing of properties is quite complex as we are finding.

Generally you need to own a bit less than 35% within 15 years of taking the loan. You could pay this up front if you have enough. You can withdraw pension money to make it work. Or you can take a loan where you generally pay 1% off a year.

The remaining 65% you can choose. If you want to continue paying it off you can. Or you can pay interest only and invest the remainder of what would be a normal monthly rent, in the hope to make gains which are better than the interest rate you pay.

I think the most important thing to consider if you choose to pay interest only. Your pension still needs to make the stress test when you stop working. By this I mean you have to essentially afford the mortgage at retirement. If the bank thinks your debt is too high for your pension earnings you may struggle to find interest only financing. I can see this being a big issue in Switzerland. Retirees no longer able to afford their properties and loans.
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Old 17.08.2021, 11:06
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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?? So you never finish paying that 65%? How is this possible? Who pays it then?

The guy is working for the bank, not for you. Good advice for the bank, bad advice for you. The bank would gladly have you paying forever.

It's sensible to have a plan and pay the house you live in. Ideally you pay it in advance so you don't need the bank. If it's not possible, get rid of the mortgage as soon as you can.
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Old 17.08.2021, 11:14
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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?? So you never finish paying that 65%? How is this possible? Who pays it then?
you don't get that 65% for free. you still owe it and the bank will collect it. either you pay it off in the future, or the bank takes it when the house is sold. the bank is just letting you delay the repayment so that they can collect interest for as long as possible.
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Old 17.08.2021, 11:19
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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The guy is working for the bank, not for you. Good advice for the bank, bad advice for you. The bank would gladly have you paying forever.

It's sensible to have a plan and pay the house you live in. Ideally you pay it in advance so you don't need the bank. If it's not possible, get rid of the mortgage as soon as you can.
this isn't really the case in Switzerland. If you pay down fully the house you live in, you will have no offset against the "imaginary" rental income you have to pay (the most stupid rule ever) so you gain onone side and lose on the other. You remove the risk of property price crashes which is a significant risk.

In the end though, the whole idea of paying off your mortgage is a bit crazy here. You buy a house for 1.25million. you might owe the bank 900k in mortgage. You want to pay it off at 1000 a month ? its 900 months, i.e. 75 years, to clear your debt.

The idea is you keep your house at a reasonable debt level (66%) and will clear the debt when you come to sell the house. In the long term like everything else house prices are increasing so if you sell your house after 10 or 20 years it should have stayed the same level or gone up. Might not, but that's your risk.
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Old 17.08.2021, 11:20
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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The guy is working for the bank, not for you. Good advice for the bank, bad advice for you. The bank would gladly have you paying forever.

It's sensible to have a plan and pay the house you live in. Ideally you pay it in advance so you don't need the bank. If it's not possible, get rid of the mortgage as soon as you can.
If you have a million in cash to pay off a property loan. You are saving yourself lets say 1% pa so 10k a year (currently) but you will also have to pay imputed rent on your property and have no deductions. So maybe the imputed rent is 20k. Therefore you pay income tax on 20k you dont actually earn.

Or you can keep the debt/maintain a loan. Pay the 10k interest a year. Reduce the imputed rent by 10k, so only pay income tax on a fake 10k rather than 20k. And invest the 1m you hold. And as long as you make net more than 1% you are by far financially better off.

On rough numbers. If you made 5% on your investments, you would be net 40k better off having the mortgage. Plus you would be paying 50% less imputed rent tax - on very rough figues
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Old 17.08.2021, 11:51
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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this isn't really the case in Switzerland. If you pay down fully the house you live in, you will have no offset against the "imaginary" rental income you have to pay (the most stupid rule ever) so you gain onone side and lose on the other. You remove the risk of property price crashes which is a significant risk.
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If you have a million in cash to pay off a property loan. You are saving yourself lets say 1% pa so 10k a year (currently) but you will also have to pay imputed rent on your property and have no deductions. So maybe the imputed rent is 20k. Therefore you pay income tax on 20k you dont actually earn.

Or you can keep the debt/maintain a loan. Pay the 10k interest a year. Reduce the imputed rent by 10k, so only pay income tax on a fake 10k rather than 20k. And invest the 1m you hold. And as long as you make net more than 1% you are by far financially better off.

On rough numbers. If you made 5% on your investments, you would be net 40k better off having the mortgage. Plus you would be paying 50% less imputed rent tax - on very rough figues
Arrghhh. Why can‘t you people get past the imputed rental value. It is a constant whether you have the mortgage or not.

Assume you have a marginal tax rate of 40% on this 20k imputed rent. That‘s 8k. So you pay 10k to the bank and now you only owe 4k tax. If you think this is a good deal, we can swap bank details and we can do the same trade.

By investing the money that you could otherwise use to pay down the debt you are hoping that you can beat the interest rate. This is easy in the longest bull market of all time with the lowest interest rates of all time. Long may it continue, but it isn‘t a given.
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Old 17.08.2021, 12:04
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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Arrghhh. Why can‘t you people get past the imputed rental value. It is a constant whether you have the mortgage or not.

Assume you have a marginal tax rate of 40% on this 20k imputed rent. That‘s 8k. So you pay 10k to the bank and now you only owe 4k tax. If you think this is a good deal, we can swap bank details and we can do the same trade.

By investing the money that you could otherwise use to pay down the debt you are hoping that you can beat the interest rate. This is easy in the longest bull market of all time with the lowest interest rates of all time. Long may it continue, but it isn‘t a given.
Paying 4k rather than 8k tax is of course a good deal!

Paying 10k to a bank on condition another financial institution ay me 50k also sounds like a great deal.

I know its not certain. But the money and investments are still there. If things go south you can still pay off the debt and sell the investments. There is a risk there but there is with everything.

Your argument is kind of like saying I wont pay for a tax adviser to help me, I will work it out myself and save that money, and calling the guy who pays a grand to the adviser crazy when he is saving 5 grand compared to you
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Old 17.08.2021, 12:15
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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Getting a tax deduction on your mortgage interest is nice, but it only saves you money to pay the interest if your marginal tax rate is over 100%.
Could you explain this point or point me to a thread where it is covered?

In my experience if you have a 40% marginal tax rate you get a reduction in your taxes of 40% of the mortgage interest
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Old 17.08.2021, 12:25
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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The guy is working for the bank, not for you. Good advice for the bank, bad advice for you. The bank would gladly have you paying forever.

It's sensible to have a plan and pay the house you live in. Ideally you pay it in advance so you don't need the bank. If it's not possible, get rid of the mortgage as soon as you can.
This is not a very good advice, I am afraid. Or maybe it's a good advice for very dumb people, because I (and nearly anyone) can invest capital at a rate which is considerably higher than the mortgage interest.

Last edited by fook; 17.08.2021 at 14:43.
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Old 17.08.2021, 12:38
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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The swiss buying and financing of properties is quite complex as we are finding.

Generally you need to own a bit less than 35% within 15 years of taking the loan. You could pay this up front if you have enough. You can withdraw pension money to make it work. Or you can take a loan where you generally pay 1% off a year.

The remaining 65% you can choose. If you want to continue paying it off you can. Or you can pay interest only and invest the remainder of what would be a normal monthly rent, in the hope to make gains which are better than the interest rate you pay.

I think the most important thing to consider if you choose to pay interest only. Your pension still needs to make the stress test when you stop working. By this I mean you have to essentially afford the mortgage at retirement. If the bank thinks your debt is too high for your pension earnings you may struggle to find interest only financing. I can see this being a big issue in Switzerland. Retirees no longer able to afford their properties and loans.
OK, this answer comes kinda close to what I've been asking. So, in other words, the bank will want me to pay off a minimum of 35% (of what? of the mortgage? of the property purchase price?).
For the rest the bank lets me choose: either defer repayment until the house is sold and pay only interest (I presume this is done to give the retirees a chance to hold on to their properties which they bought when they were working), or to pay it off. If I choose to pay it off, I can pretty much set my own repayment schedule. Is this more or less a correct description?
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Old 17.08.2021, 12:48
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Re: Swiss Mortgage long-term

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Arrghhh. Why can‘t you people get past the imputed rental value. It is a constant whether you have the mortgage or not.
Indeed.

Imputed rental is the same with or without mortgage.

Wealth tax is the same with or without mortgage.

The only argument is whether you want to risk earning more from the money elsewhere.

Swiss government bond yields are currently negative, so you can't make more money at the same zero risk as paying off the mortgage.

If you want to argue otherwise, I can get 35x return on investment on roulette at the casino, can you beat that? Don't mention risk to me if you ignore it when comparing your alternative investments to paying off the mortgage.
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