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  #41  
Old 03.04.2009, 13:03
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Many moons ago, we were renting a house out in the Fribourg sticks. When we moved, we spent a long time cleaning it thoroughly (including the garage floor). At the handover, the owner (German origin, Swiss military) was extremely picky. Having moved out, we waited for the return of our deposit, only to find tehy had taken a huge whack off it for "re-cleaning" including the princely sum of 60.- per hour cleaning! This was 11 years ago too. At the time we were naive, gullible and had never heard of the Mietverband. I wish I knew then what I know now.
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  #42  
Old 04.04.2009, 08:16
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

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Yes, I cleaned the apartment myself. It took two full days too. I don't know whether it was the incoming tenant who found the apartment insufficiently clean or the Verwaltung. (The incoming tenant was very hard-nosed and nit picking.)

During the handover the Verwaltung asked me to re-clean the windows in the bedroom, the stove and the toilet. I stayed another two hours after she left to make sure everything was spotless. If I had had the money to get professional cleaners, I would have.

I have contacted the Mietverband and they advised me to object to supplemental charges for cleaning.
I am confused. What does the report say? I am referring to the report that is done at the inspection. You should have a copy. You must have signed it, as did the Verwaltung and if you had an expert there, they would have signed too, and the incoming tenant if you did the inspection at the same time. There are places for 4 signatures on the form.

I can't imagine the Verwaltung staying for 2 hours while you cleaned so was the form signed based on the understanding that you would just fix those few things and that was that?
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Old 04.04.2009, 08:27
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

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Well, I don't want to give up so easily either, because the Verwaltung will just try exploiting every subsequent foreigner. I also have cleaned the apartment and left it in a better condition from when I moved in. Some of my former neighbors from the same building told me that when they moved out they did not have any problems even though they did not clean very well.

I think the Verwaltung just dislikes me because I had complained about the heating 2 years ago. 2 years ago the heating in the building was very bad. After taking too many cold showers in the winter, I wrote a letter to complain about it. I think perhaps she still holds a grudge over this. Of course, I may be wrong.
Unfortunately the state the apartment was in when you moved in has no bearing on how you leave it. Unfair, but that is how it is. This is why it is equally important to have an expert with you when you take over an apartment. I always note poor cleaning and most often this is when the previous tenant cleaned it themselves. Most often there is nothing we can do about it. What I would like to do is not accept the keys and tell the owner to go get it cleaned properly but the trouble is there is never any time for this as the moving schedule is so tight as it is. Why should my clients, or any new tenants, move into anything that is not spotless? They will be be expected to leave it that way if and when they move.

Even if the Verwaltung dislikes you, (yes, they can dislike people who complain as this can cost them money) that is not a sufficient reason for them to treat you any differently than any other tenant though I suspect they might be glad you are moving. I am sure the feeling is mutual.

Hope you get things sorted out. Having a battle over the depost is not fun.
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Old 04.04.2009, 09:17
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

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Just remember, the whole system seems to be designed so that the tenant moving out gets screwed for everything and that the landlord never pays anything for 'wear and tear' on his properties. So, new wooden flooring in every apartment every 2 or 3 years is fine, the outgoing tenant gets to pay for it.

And they talk about rip-off Britain!
If you have an official caretaker then this caretaker might be linked to a cleaning company and it might be a good idea to go through such a caretaker for the hand-over cleaning as they will know the landlord and any failings on the cleaning will hopefully be put right via the caretaker.

A different tactic might be to clean it yourself up to the British standard and then assume the landlord will complain and charge you for cleaning which is what they were going to do in the first place anyway.

Last edited by RolandRB; 04.04.2009 at 09:28.
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  #45  
Old 05.04.2009, 09:37
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Good morning,

I left my last apartment after using a cleaning company http://www.zuericlean.ch
They are flexible, get the job done and will be with you to hand over the keys, which is highly useful!

When they give you a quote, you can be sure it is reasonable. I'd say it costs between 800 and 1000 Fr for 4 rooms.
Good luck, this thing is such a head ache!
Kind regards,
Gigi.
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  #46  
Old 06.04.2009, 10:36
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Mrs. Doolittle, I have researched the Swiss law (case and code law) on apartment leases and do not see anywhere in the code that an apartment needs to be professionally cleaned or conform to the standards of a professionally cleaned apartment. I have also confirmed this with the Mieterverband. It should also be noted that the principles of "abus de droit" and good faith govern contractual relationships in Switzerland. An apartment lease is a contract. If the Verwaltung asks me to re-clean certain areas, which I did, and comes back claiming that I did not clean such areas and then adds new things to the list-- this reflects bad faith on her part and an abuse of her rights. She also did not give me a copy of the protocol. I have requested it and she has not sent it to me.


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Unfortunately the state the apartment was in when you moved in has no bearing on how you leave it. Unfair, but that is how it is. This is why it is equally important to have an expert with you when you take over an apartment. I always note poor cleaning and most often this is when the previous tenant cleaned it themselves. Most often there is nothing we can do about it. What I would like to do is not accept the keys and tell the owner to go get it cleaned properly but the trouble is there is never any time for this as the moving schedule is so tight as it is. Why should my clients, or any new tenants, move into anything that is not spotless? They will be be expected to leave it that way if and when they move.

Even if the Verwaltung dislikes you, (yes, they can dislike people who complain as this can cost them money) that is not a sufficient reason for them to treat you any differently than any other tenant though I suspect they might be glad you are moving. I am sure the feeling is mutual.

Hope you get things sorted out. Having a battle over the depost is not fun.

Last edited by cute_seal; 06.04.2009 at 10:37. Reason: typo
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  #47  
Old 06.04.2009, 12:14
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Good morning,

With 3 weeks before we move out from our current apartment I wondering if is mandatory to re-paint the place before we leave.
This weekend the landlord came with the new tenant's to do the measure of the rooms and she made the comment that we had "forgot to paint the bedrooms" (she know a year ago we paint the rest of the house, living rooms, kitchen, dinning room, the entrance, the wooden floor and the stairs) so now I feel a bit scare that in the final inspection she point that "detail" to claim a bit of the deposit.
So, my question is: it's mandatory to paint again before we leave even if all the walls, including the bedrooms walls are in good condition and all clean?
We founded 3 good candidates to take this apartment after we leave,in fact, the couple who will sign the contract is one of the couples that we present to the landlord. But we noted that it wont be so easy to leave as another thing that the landlord said is that even if we are leaving this place the last days of April we will have to pay 2 weeks rent (May) as the next tenants will move the 5!!! How that could be fare?!?!!? So, in the case that this new people move in by the end of the month we will have to pay the whole month???
After have read some experiences here of people moving and their final inspections as well I hope do not have too much problem with ours but, any information will be more than welcome!

Thanks in advance!!

MT.
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  #48  
Old 06.04.2009, 14:10
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Maytegar88 Yessss the landlord can say paint the appartment.And they can say we want two weeks rent.And if you are broking your contract thin yes you pay for the two weeks. dekrim
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  #49  
Old 06.04.2009, 14:27
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Oh! I see...

So, this kind of things could vary from one landlord's criteria to other, right? (the request of re-paint all again)

She use to come here a lot and always said she love how we keep the place all clean and everything in good conditions but I'm guessing this could change when we have this famous "etat the lieux".

I was feeling OK because all the people who came here to see the apartment made the same comment about how nice and clean the place looks.

This will be the first time that we move here by our owns (the first time the company made all the arrangements and paperworks) so we are learning from other's experience and comments.

Thank you!

MT.
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Old 06.04.2009, 17:20
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

No Maytegar88, the landlord can't just tell you to repaint the whole apartment. Normal signs of wear are acceptable and are "included" in the rent you pay. If there are some bad marks this is another story, but from what you say that doesn't seem to be the case.

If you are moving before the term of your contract then you are indeed liable for the rent until the new tenants have taken possession, i.e. the date their contract is effective. They may have signed a contract with effect May 1, but only move in on May 5. That is not your problem and you will only need to pay until the end of April. But if their contract is effective from May 5, then you are on the hook until then. But, if you were expecting to pay until the end of April I don't understand why you are being asked to pay 2 weeks more rent if the new tenants are moving in on May 5th? Maybe I have misunderstood something...

But I do suggest joining the ASLOCA (tenants association) who can give you advice and help with the final inspection. I also suggest using a professional cleaning company so that there is nothing that the landlord can possibly trip you up on.

Good luck!
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  #51  
Old 06.04.2009, 17:35
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

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No Maytegar88, the landlord can't just tell you to repaint the whole apartment. Normal signs of wear are acceptable and are "included" in the rent you pay. If there are some bad marks this is another story, but from what you say that doesn't seem to be the case.

If you are moving before the term of your contract then you are indeed liable for the rent until the new tenants have taken possession, i.e. the date their contract is effective. They may have signed a contract with effect May 1, but only move in on May 5. That is not your problem and you will only need to pay until the end of April. But if their contract is effective from May 5, then you are on the hook until then. But, if you were expecting to pay until the end of April I don't understand why you are being asked to pay 2 weeks more rent if the new tenants are moving in on May 5th? Maybe I have misunderstood something...

But I do suggest joining the ASLOCA (tenants association) who can give you advice and help with the final inspection. I also suggest using a professional cleaning company so that there is nothing that the landlord can possibly trip you up on.

Good luck!
I would have to agree with Snoopy. I read this in the book on law re: apartment leases in "Le bail à loyer" put out by ASLOCA (p. 809 section 5.3, in case you want to look it up). Marks on the wall from pictures or furniture is considered normal wear and tear. I would contact ASLOCA (what I should have done). Good luck.
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  #52  
Old 06.04.2009, 20:38
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Thank you Snoopy and Cute Seal for your advise.

I have a better idea now and will get in contact with the Asloca association that you have mentioned here.

We have found a cleaning company who offer us a good price and also will send someone to the final inspection so I guess (hope) everything is going to be fine.

The landlord made me think is our obligation to re paint the whole apartment before we leave and considering that the most of the house it was already painted by us a year ago and everything looks clean and new I was getting really stress and confused!

The new tenants said they will be able to move the 5 of May but now they said would be around the 15 of May so that's the reason the landlord said we will have to paid half month.
I guess she got confused first because last week she said even if they move the 5 of May we will have to pay 2 weeks rent, but as we spoke with her as that have not sense she now said the new tenants are probably moving the 15's.

Thank you a lot for your help and hopefully we will move from this place without too much problems

Regards,
MT
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  #53  
Old 03.11.2009, 09:34
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Hi there,

I will be leaving my apartment 3.5 room flat next year Feb. I heard that we need to service the things like 'Fridge, oven, washing machine etc'.

I called my Immobilier Agent and he said just a thorough cleaning will do (it could be that there was a misunderstanding or miscommunication as my German or his English is pathetic).

So I wish to know if I do need to service the electrical appliances that came with the apartment.

Thanks for your replies.
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Old 03.11.2009, 09:39
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Hi,
I thought the same thing when we moved. I asked around and nobody seemed to know. I ended up just having it all cleaned (nothing serviced) and it was fine. The landlord said nothing about it, and she was tough! Good luck with the move.
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  #55  
Old 03.11.2009, 09:42
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Hi, I can share my experience of moving out of my Zurich apartment with you. I "thoroughly" cleaned my oven and stove. The Verwaltung deemed it was not clean enough. Aparently I was supposed to restore a 20+ old stove to a nearly new condition. I think they even ended up having to replace it in the end because one of the hotplates wasn't working properly anymore and the stove was not very good (everything came out burnt). But before replacing the oven the Verwaltung made me pay an additional CHF 300 to have the oven "recleaned".

I would suggest getting a professional cleaning company in to do the cleaning for you. I would have done that if I could go back in time. I was trying to save money and ended up with a lot of aggravation, back and forth with the Verwaltung. I even had to write a letter to the Verwaltung on my law firm's letterhead threatening legal action after they ignored all my requests for the return of my deposit. Only then did I finally receive my deposit.

Just my experience though. Your Verwaltung might be more reasonable, but I wouldn't risk it if I were you.

Last edited by cute_seal; 03.11.2009 at 09:45. Reason: typos
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  #56  
Old 03.11.2009, 09:58
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

I moved out of a 1 year old, 120m 4.5 room, 2 bath place in September and was consulting the EF as to how it all went for everyone. We spent about 8 hours cleaning the place (most of it was 2.7m high, floor to ceiling windows from outside and the shutters...lot's of them...the other bit that sucked was the oven...we did a crappy job patching the holes in the ceiling from the light fixtures but during inspection while it was noted we did not have to pay a dime. New tenant was there and it all went well...The agency I rented from was Wincasa and they knew I was moving to another new Wincasa run place so perhaps that helped...I can tell you that it was a good feelign to save the money. I'll take my chanes again in the future and we will celan ourselves. New place is smaller (90m) and all windows open inside so it will be much less work.
What helps is to keep your place maintained and clean on regular basis...that is what we do.
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Old 03.11.2009, 10:04
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Jaro, I guess you were lucky. It seems many of these Verwaltungs take advantage of people to make a bit of extra cash or just to be difficult. I am not a Swiss lawyer, but I have researched the law on this and the law does not state that an apartment must be professionally cleaned just "clean". However, many are applying this standard. I think it's unfair--but I got screwed on my move. So once burned . . .
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Old 03.11.2009, 10:19
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Perhaps yes...it was luck...but believe me that there would be a major fight and I would not easily hand over the cash...at least negotiate it way down
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  #59  
Old 26.02.2010, 10:16
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

Hello all,

Can anyone recommend a pro cleaning company, of the sort one hires when a person moves in/out of a Swiss apartment? It would be nice to to find a recommendation of persons that forum members have worked with.

Thank you!
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  #60  
Old 19.04.2010, 13:06
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Re: Cleaning appartment when moving

There are a couple of points I would like to add here...

If you sign a contract which specifies that you must stay (for instance) until November 2011 and then find you have to leave early... then you must of course find a suitable tenant able to pay the rent (No big debts) and willing to take over your contact until November 2011. BUT be aware that you are still responsible for the rent until November 2011, so if the new tenant defaults before 30.11.2011 you have to pay up!

I took over an apartment that was plainly dirty, the woman had wiped the floors and brought along her boyfriend along as witness, complete with a steam cleaner!
I immediately noticed the birds nest in the blinds, the dirt on top of the bathroom pipes, the strange colours in the fridge... The agent assured me he would write everything down, and I could then complain or sign. I later agreed that the 23 entries about the dirt in the flat were correct and signed the paper. Next day I called the agent and asked when were they going to clean the apartment. Unbelief came back down the phone as I had agreed to the standard only yesterday! It took me a lot of persuasion and help from my boss that I had not agreed that the cleanliness was acceptable, and to get them to send the cleaners in! (My boss owns a block of flats, knew the law, and wrote the letter for me to the agent). I should have got a statement on the handover form that the flat would be re-cleaned properly before a stated date. The problem is legally proving the dirt isn't yours, if you move in then they can argue that you messed it up. In this case I was waiting at 3 pm with a packed furniture truck to move in, and couldn't wait outside for another 3 days for the place to be cleaned.

I always found it a good idea to ask the agent / owner for a pre- inspection about 2 weeks ahead of the move. Play the innocent foreigner and you can carefully find out if the holes in the wall have to be filled by a professional painter, (or simply using your own toothpaste), and generally "get the lie of the land" You can also decide whether you need a witness.

A friend of mine asked her Lawyer to send someone as a witness, as she knew the agents would be difficult. Lawyer also sent the claim for Fr 2'000 to the insurance company and received back Fr 1'800 , minus the lawyer's fee of Fr 600 ..........

As to finding someone to do the cleaning, ask the agent for a reccomendation! Then get a guarenteed handover from the cleaners. Bring cash to the handover and pay the cleaners there and then.

I have just found this information, http://wup.alogis.ch/?rub=51
Übersetzung von Deutsch in EnglischLateinische Umschrift anzeigen

09/10/2003
Defects after the tenant - how to proceed?
I have rented the former home of my parents. The tenant moved out to the end of September and has left the apartment after only one year's rental in very bad condition. The carpets are verfleckt and have burn holes, the walls are yellowed from cigarette smoke, the sink was cracked and the toilet is completely calcified. The official handover will take place next week. What should I do? M.A.
First, you should document all deficiencies good by filling out a housing inspection protocol and the defects if possible to hold photographs. Is advantageous if the tenant is present at the handover and co-signed the protocol. Then you have the tenant immediately, ie within two to three working days, inform, for which losses you make him liable. In the calculation of damages you should be aware that not usually the original price or the full repair costs may be required by the tenant. Instead, this only need to pay the state value of the damaged item, which means the value which the matter taking into account their age and the expected "life" to be issued. The toilet bowl and the sink for example, have a lifespan of 40 years. Have they reached that age actually have to pay the tenant anything, even if there toilet and sink in more careful treatment for a long time been working. For wallpaper and carpets is seen to reach a 10-year lifetime. If you have new upholstery before the arrival of the tenant, the tenant must do so 90% of these costs. the tenant refuses to pay the costs, you must contact the Mietschlichtungsstelle at the place of rental property.

Last edited by Ittigen; 19.04.2010 at 14:57. Reason: fresh information
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