Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #341  
Old 29.01.2018, 14:08
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 21
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Quote:
Your renter is bluffing partly with the reduction, yes he can get it lowered if the current used number is higher than 1,5% but this only becomes valid at the next legally allowed cancellation date and is absolutely not counting for any period upfront of that date.

If the contract started 10 years ago it is likely the current used percentage is 3,5%, if the rent for example currently is 1500,- this would get lowered by almost 300,- a month.

It is hard to give you a proper advice not knowing the exact contract and situation of your house. if the price is based on indexation for example the above percentage does not matter, and what is written in your contract about future rent increase?
It is a very old contract, they have been there for almost 30 years. I am not sure if the contract mentions interest rate.

Quote:
View Post
Bullshit. The law (federal at least) is pretty clear here: the onus is on the tenants to request a reduction and they only get it from the next possible cancellation date, never retroactively. I've seen a few cases where a large sum had to be repaid retroactively, but that was normally accompanied by some other major screw ups, never reference rate change alone


In the mean time reference rate dropped from 3% to 1.5% automatically entitling your tenants to 15-20% rent reduction or so. This is probably more than 200 Fr you want so if you insist on your 200 Fr increase they'll likely end up paying a lower rent after all


The onus will be on you to prove that to the court, it'll be an exercise in formalities, don't underestimate just how big of a circus it can be. Ask HEV for an expert opinion if you have a chance to defend the rent along this line

Have you already renovated? If not yet, just tell them plans changed, it'll be a major remodel, they got to move out and cancel based on that. They can contest it in court and get an extension but not forever
I thought their reply was a bit threatening, especially taking into consideration the history here and the fact that since I took over this house I have pretty much done most of what they requested to be done within our means.

The work has been done, including some unplanned extras. But a full major renovation could be something to look into.

I will look into HEV, hopefully they are a bit more helpful than CGI.

Quote:
View Post
This thread is a bit long, but there are some links that might help you figure out how much rent reduction the tenant could claim under the interest reduction.

https://www.englishforum.ch/housing-...nssatz-17.html

There's a calculator link in post #321.

You could then compare this amount to the 200 you plan to raise the rent, and see where you land.

And +1 for what Wolverine said.
I've read that thread and checked the calculator. Unfortunately I am not 100% sure what was the base interest rate set on the contract as they have been there for almost 30 years.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 29.01.2018 at 15:33. Reason: merging consecutive replies
Reply With Quote
  #342  
Old 29.01.2018, 14:42
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: tenants and rent adjustments.

Quote:
View Post
I've read that thread and checked the calculator. Unfortunately I am not 100% sure what was the base interest rate set on the contract as they have been there for almost 30 years.
If there is any it must be mentioned in the contract.

Before you can decide how to handle this situation you must be aware of where you stand and what all has been agreed upon.

And some reading up on what all is involved would be wise. If the renter asks for a reduction based on the rent than you can counter that probably partly by pointing towards "teuerung" and "allgemeine Kostensteigerung", if the contract is subject to the national index for rents than you could (if high enough) even use the "teuerung" to counter the reduction completely.

1. Read your contract and understand all of it.
2. Read up on current laws so you get an idea of all involved.
3. Get an idea of what the end result might be on rent if the renter pulls through.
4. Draw your plan and go in debate with the renter.

If the renter refuses all, than you come at the point of needing help.

There is a lot of reading for you at mieterverband.ch

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet....html#Teuerung
Reply With Quote
  #343  
Old 29.01.2018, 16:39
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 21
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: tenants and rent adjustments.

Quote:
If there is any it must be mentioned in the contract.

Before you can decide how to handle this situation you must be aware of where you stand and what all has been agreed upon.

And some reading up on what all is involved would be wise. If the renter asks for a reduction based on the rent than you can counter that probably partly by pointing towards "teuerung" and "allgemeine Kostensteigerung", if the contract is subject to the national index for rents than you could (if high enough) even use the "teuerung" to counter the reduction completely.

1. Read your contract and understand all of it.
2. Read up on current laws so you get an idea of all involved.
3. Get an idea of what the end result might be on rent if the renter pulls through.
4. Draw your plan and go in debate with the renter.

If the renter refuses all, than you come at the point of needing help.

There is a lot of reading for you at mieterverband.ch

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet....html#Teuerung
thanks for the helpful links.

I also need to dig up all the old contracts, what is the situation if the contract does not mention interest rate?
Reply With Quote
  #344  
Old 29.01.2018, 17:09
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: tenants and rent adjustments.

Quote:
View Post
thanks for the helpful links.

I also need to dig up all the old contracts, what is the situation if the contract does not mention interest rate?
If no "Referenzzins" is mentioned in the contract and it does not have indexing and it was signed before the 10.09.2008 you have to look for the cantonal value valid on when the contract was signed.

(As of the 10th of September 2008 these values are national, before this they were cantonal)

http://www.mietrecht.ch/20.0.html

These numbers are leading.

And what do you mean with all the old contracts? there is only one valid rental contract, you cannot have several different ones, so you only want the one that applies to the rent as is today.

EDIT: And don't be in for a shock, but about 30 years ago values of 7% were normal, given that the value now is 1,5% this would justify a lowering of 600,- a month on a nett rent of 1500,- unless you can counter it, so be careful on how to act.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #345  
Old 31.01.2018, 12:45
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: geneva
Posts: 21
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
inapickle has no particular reputation at present
Re: tenants and rent adjustments.

Quote:
If no "Referenzzins" is mentioned in the contract and it does not have indexing and it was signed before the 10.09.2008 you have to look for the cantonal value valid on when the contract was signed.

(As of the 10th of September 2008 these values are national, before this they were cantonal)

http://www.mietrecht.ch/20.0.html

These numbers are leading.

And what do you mean with all the old contracts? there is only one valid rental contract, you cannot have several different ones, so you only want the one that applies to the rent as is today.

EDIT: And don't be in for a shock, but about 30 years ago values of 7% were normal, given that the value now is 1,5% this would justify a lowering of 600,- a month on a nett rent of 1500,- unless you can counter it, so be careful on how to act.
Thanks for the advice, will certainly be very careful as if something like this reduction were to happen it would certainly take a huge toll on the finances and the cost of maintening the house, saving up for a new boiler keeping up with mortgage.

I'm curious on how all the other houses in the village got to their current prices, I'm guessing by constantly getting in new tenants and new contracts.
Reply With Quote
  #346  
Old 31.01.2018, 13:19
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: tenants and rent adjustments.

Quote:
View Post
Thanks for the advice, will certainly be very careful as if something like this reduction were to happen it would certainly take a huge toll on the finances and the cost of maintening the house, saving up for a new boiler keeping up with mortgage.

I'm curious on how all the other houses in the village got to their current prices, I'm guessing by constantly getting in new tenants and new contracts.
Likely most landlords do not ignore the contracts and the houses for decades and raise the prices every now and then, the legal rulings give a landlord room to raise the price to keep renting out a profitable business, just like it gives renters the room to keep the profit within healthy margins. It is sort of a balancing game where parties have rights, and if both parties play it well the rent stays at a level where profit is made but not so much that the renter is overpaying.

If the renter asks for a lowering of the rent due to legal reasons you can counter this partly or whole (depending on your contract) if you have valid arguments that maintaining the building and other steady costs have gone up for you.

And painting the house is no reason to raise a rent, you as a landlord should know how often you have to repaint (there are even legal rulings for this) just like you should know how much money to reserve for a lot of maintenance issues, and this reservation should be a part of the total rent.
Reply With Quote
  #347  
Old 11.02.2018, 19:37
vlg vlg is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
vlg has no particular reputation at present
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Hi, All!

My landlord sent me calculation of new monthly rental fee due to deduction of reference rate from 1.75% till 1.50%.

Could someone comment on the following related questions?

1. How it is result that decrease of Referenzzissatz from 1.75% till 1.5% corresponds to 2.91% decrease of monthly rent?
2. How it is result that increase of CPI from 91.1 Punkte till 98.1 Punkte corresponds to 0.41% increase of monthly rent?
3. Whether landlord indeed has a legal right to apply increase of costs (Kostensteigerung) in the amount 0.5% pa? (at the end it resulted in increase of monthly rate for 0.92%).

Thanks a lot in advance for replies?
Reply With Quote
  #348  
Old 11.02.2018, 19:41
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,243
Groaned at 346 Times in 288 Posts
Thanked 12,073 Times in 5,849 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Quote:
View Post
Hi, All!

My landlord sent me calculation of new monthly rental fee due to deduction of reference rate from 1.75% till 1.50%.

Could someone comment on the following related questions?

1. How it is result that decrease of Referenzzissatz from 1.75% till 1.5% corresponds to 2.91% decrease of monthly rent?
2. How it is result that increase of CPI from 91.1 Punkte till 98.1 Punkte corresponds to 0.41% increase of monthly rent?
3. Whether landlord indeed has a legal right to apply increase of costs (Kostensteigerung) in the amount 0.5% pa? (at the end it resulted in increase of monthly rate for 0.92%).

Thanks a lot in advance for replies?
Sorry, too lazy to calculate what your rent is. Maybe just tell us?
Reply With Quote
  #349  
Old 11.02.2018, 19:46
vlg vlg is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
vlg has no particular reputation at present
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

It was CHF 2 650.00 per month and now it is CHF 2 608.00
Reply With Quote
  #350  
Old 11.02.2018, 19:52
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Quote:
View Post
1. How it is result that decrease of Referenzzissatz from 1.75% till 1.5% corresponds to 2.91% decrease of monthly rent?
2. How it is result that increase of CPI from 91.1 Punkte till 98.1 Punkte corresponds to 0.41% increase of monthly rent?
Art. 269 OR, Art 12-13 VMWG

Quote:
3. Whether landlord indeed has a legal right to apply increase of costs (Kostensteigerung) in the amount 0.5% pa?
Law doesn't prescribe the exact percentage, only that increase in costs in general can be passed onto the tenant. 0.5-1% pauschal per year is what courts used to accept without proof. But you can try to contest it and demand proofs if you want, arguing perhaps that inflation was negative or close to zero for a while. Buy FYI it's back to positive, 0.5-0.8% y/y or so
Reply With Quote
  #351  
Old 11.02.2018, 20:09
vlg vlg is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
vlg has no particular reputation at present
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Quote:
View Post
Art. 269 OR, Art 12-13 VMWG


Law doesn't prescribe the exact percentage, only that increase in costs in general can be passed onto the tenant. 0.5-1% pauschal per year is what courts used to accept without proof. But you can try to contest it and demand proofs if you want, arguing perhaps that inflation was negative or close to zero for a while. Buy FYI it's back to positive, 0.5-0.8% y/y or so
Dear Ivank, thanks for your reply!

I have checked respective articles at Code of Obligations and VMWG but did not find an exact answers. I would like to check the exact calculations of landlord and understand why exactly 2.91% and 0.41% were applied.

On the 0.5% pa increase - I already asked landlord to provide their arguments for such decision, will see what they reply.
Reply With Quote
  #352  
Old 11.02.2018, 20:12
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

2.91% (=1-100/103) is the inverse of 3% increase that would apply if reference rate were raised by 25bp
98.1/91.1*40% = 0.43%, he can charge you even a little more than 0.41%

3% and 40% constants you can find in the quoted laws if you're not blind
Reply With Quote
  #353  
Old 11.02.2018, 20:34
vlg vlg is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
vlg has no particular reputation at present
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Quote:
View Post
2.91% (=1-100/103) is the inverse of 3% increase that would apply if reference rate were raised by 25bp
98.1/91.1*40% = 0.43%, he can charge you even a little more than 0.41%

3% and 40% constants you can find in the quoted laws if you're not blind
Ivank, thanks for detailed reply!
BTW, previous CPI was 97.1 and not of 91.1, hence 98.1/97.1*40% = 0.40%
So they already charged 0.01% more

I read the laws once again, but unfortunately did not find the clause regarding 40% rule for CPI. Would you mind to provide QUOTE/UNQUOTE of exact paragraph?
Reply With Quote
  #354  
Old 11.02.2018, 20:39
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Quote:
I read the laws once again, but unfortunately did not find the clause regarding 40% rule for CPI. Would you mind to provide QUOTE/UNQUOTE of exact paragraph?
"Zum Ausgleich der Teuerung auf dem risikotragenden Kapital im Sinne von Artikel 269a Buchstabe e OR darf der Mietzins um höchstens 40 Prozent der Steigerung des Landesindexes der Konsumentenpreise erhöht werden."

Quote:
View Post
Ivank, thanks for detailed reply!
BTW, previous CPI was 97.1 and not of 91.1, hence 98.1/97.1*40% = 0.40%
So they already charged 0.01% more
Actually sorry formula I posted was a bit wrong, one needs of course to substract 100% after dividing

In [1]: (98.1/97.1-1)*0.40*100
Out[1]: 0.4119464469618972

So 0.41% increase for inflation seems correct

There are tons of online calculators who'll perform these calculations for you, there's no need to do all of this by hand. Only thing to keep in mind when using them is that 0.5-1% pauschal increase for Kostensteigerung is subjective. HEV will of course tell you to jack it all the way up, MV will tell you it should be 0% in current economic climate, you can go to a court or Schlichtungsbehörde and get some other opinion. If landlord can produce some hard bills to back his number, those will prevail

Last edited by ivank; 11.02.2018 at 20:51.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ivank for this useful post:
  #355  
Old 17.03.2019, 00:20
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
onsik has no particular reputation at present
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Hi

Could you explain me the sentence below, please?
Under the Mietzins rate info there is: "Ein Absinken unter den Anfangsmietzins ist in jedem Fall ausgeschlossen."
Does it mean that I can not apply to lower down my Mietzins? The question is not to get this translated, but can agency actually put something like that in the contract ? Are they obligated still to lower down my rent if I send them a letter, or with that simple sentence they just wash their hands off?

Thank you in advance.
Onsik
Reply With Quote
  #356  
Old 17.03.2019, 06:48
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,243
Groaned at 346 Times in 288 Posts
Thanked 12,073 Times in 5,849 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mietzins - reduce the rent

Quote:
View Post
Hi

Could you explain me the sentence below, please?
Under the Mietzins rate info in my contract there is: "Ein Absinken unter den Anfangsmietzins ist in jedem Fall ausgeschlossen."
Does it mean that I can not apply to lower down my Mietzins? The question is not to get this translated, but can agency actually put something like that in the contract ? Are they obligated still to lower down my rent if I send them a letter, or with that simple sentence they just wash their hands off?

Thank you in advance.
Onsik
They can put it in the contract, you can decide not to sign. It is not correct that the rent cannot be lowered if the Mietzins is lowered but it will be up to you to enforce that.

Ask them to remove that clause?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #357  
Old 19.03.2019, 22:55
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
onsik has no particular reputation at present
Re: Mietzins - reduce the rent

Thanks roegner.
I will definitelly try. Have you seen that kind of situation before?
Reply With Quote
  #358  
Old 15.03.2020, 12:00
vlg vlg is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
vlg has no particular reputation at present
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Hi all,

Does anybody know whether reduction of Hypothekarischer Referenzzinssatz also allows decrease of rental fee for Einstellplatz (garage at the house where I rent the flat) and for parking place in the city which I rent near the office.

Thanks a lot in advance for sharing experience!
Reply With Quote
  #359  
Old 15.03.2020, 14:10
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,747
Groaned at 257 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 17,644 Times in 7,170 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz]

Quote:
View Post
Hi all,

Does anybody know whether reduction of Hypothekarischer Referenzzinssatz also allows decrease of rental fee for Einstellplatz (garage at the house where I rent the flat) and for parking place in the city which I rent near the office.

Thanks a lot in advance for sharing experience!
Check your contracts. If the Referenzzinssatz is mentioned there, then you can request a reduction if the current rate is below your contractual rate. If not, then no.
Reply With Quote
  #360  
Old 15.03.2020, 17:41
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Geneva
Posts: 105
Groaned at 12 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 26 Times in 20 Posts
neutralname has no particular reputation at present
@jot timeline for rent reduction request- interest rate drops

Hi all
I have read jot's post but I struggle to understand the date in below sentence (I am not native English speaker):

If you want to request a rent reduction according to the interest rate drop, you have to do this in writing and abide by the official notice periods as stated in your rental contract - the reduction can only take effect from that date (i.e. if your next official notice date (Kündigungstermin) is 1st October, with a 3 month notice period, you have to send the letter by recorded delivery (Eingeschrieben) by the end of this month for the reduction to take effect from 1st October).

my contract extract in Geneva:
duration of the contrcat: a year
start:1st May 2017
End:30 April 2018
notice period: at least 3 months before contract expiry/ends
Renewal: each 12 months, cf. article 13 of general conditions and rules(2010 edition)

I have sent my request by Email, (scanned letter attached) a week ago and received an electronical receipt containing my message,

so from which date the regie will decrease my rent in my case? (if they accept)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comparis, housing, interest rate, mieterverband, mietzins, referenzzinssatz, rent, rent decreases, rent reduction




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Krankenkasse: possible reduction of price? Lammhaxe Daily life 5 14.11.2013 18:33
House Rent Reduction (Reduktion der Mieten verlangen) Still Possible The Real Stig Housing in general 0 24.04.2013 09:39
Discrepancy in rent reduction re: interest rates little_isabella Housing in general 3 10.07.2012 10:55
rent reduction? TapiroLee Housing in general 4 29.12.2009 11:35
Demand rent reduction? sharkey Housing in general 2 15.04.2009 15:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0