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Old 09.09.2009, 10:43
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Nebenkosten [extra rental costs] bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

I will try to explain this as succinctly as possible. Thanks in advance for your help.

I received my first annual Nebenkosten reconciliation. I have been paying 130CHF per month for 10 months for a total of 1300 CHF already paid in. The landlord (Verwaltung) sent me a bill saying the total was over 1800 and I owe them 577 CHF.

However, my bill has all of the following. Note I am responsible for only a portion of this, so don't try to reconcile to the above amount.
Heizkosten:
Heizgas ~ 4000 CHF
Kaminfeger ~ 200 CHF
Rückstellung Entkalkung Warmwasseraufbereitungsanlage and Heizungswartung ~ 150 CHF
Serviceabo Heizungswartung ~ 1100 CHF
Verwaltungskosten 4% plus MWST ~ 250 CHF

Nebenkosten:
Elektrizität und Abfallbeseititung ~ 1000 CHF
Wasserversorgung ~ 1800 CHF
Verwaltungskosten 4% plus MWST ~ 170 CHF


As far as I can tell my contract only calls for me to pay Heating Costs. Is there something in the Swiss Code that says I have to pay all of these costs?

Specifically, I am wondering:
-Why do I have to pay for Kaminfeger when I don't have a fireplace?
-Why doesn't the landlord pay for Verwaltungskosten? It's his choice to use them.
-Warm water is "pauschal" in my contract, so why do I have to pay for it in the Nebenkosten?
-Why is Electricity and Garbage disposal there also? I pay my eletricity separately each quarter and I buy my Zurisacks at Migros.

I would appreciate your insight. I like my landlord and I don't want to make a fuss unless it's necessary.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 09.09.2009, 10:52
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

I'd love to hear the answer to this as I too was caught unawares re Nebenkosten.

All I can contribute is re electricity -- presumably this charge is for the "common areas" of the building such as external and hallway lighting, heating of the foyer etc. As for the rest ... would love to know!
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Old 09.09.2009, 10:53
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

Welcome to the world of Neben costs. From my experience this is quite normal. The chimney sweep will ensure that the flu from the oil boiler doesn't get sooted up and probably visits once or twice a year.

Nebenkosten:
Elektrizität und Abfallbeseititung ~ 1000 CHF
Wasserversorgung ~ 1800 CHF
Verwaltungskosten 4% plus MWST ~ 170 CHF

-Warm water is "pauschal" in my contract, so why do I have to pay for it in the Nebenkosten?- There is probably a meter somewhere that is measuring your usage.

Not sure about electricity / may be there is a thermostat switch used, Abfallbeseitigung - the bins have to be cleaned periodically. Water OK.
Verwaltungskosten - Management fee - depends upon your contract.

There is no cable tv in there, that is normally there.

Bottom line - it is probably all above board, but speak to your landlord if you have any concerns. You can always increase your monthly payment to cover the additional cost.
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Old 09.09.2009, 10:55
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

I am pretty sure that the Kaminfeger does not only clean the chimney of fire places but mainly the ones from gas or oil heating systems... so I would say yes, you will have to pay a part.
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Old 09.09.2009, 10:58
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

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Heizkosten:
Heizgas ~ 4000 CHF
Kaminfeger ~ 200 CHF
Rückstellung Entkalkung Warmwasseraufbereitungsanlage and Heizungswartung ~ 150 CHF
Serviceabo Heizungswartung ~ 1100 CHF
Verwaltungskosten 4% plus MWST ~ 250 CHF

Nebenkosten:
Elektrizität und Abfallbeseititung ~ 1000 CHF
Wasserversorgung ~ 1800 CHF
Verwaltungskosten 4% plus MWST ~ 170 CHF


-Warm water is "pauschal" in my contract, so why do I have to pay for it in the Nebenkosten?
Those are all normal costs associated with the heating systems. Your pauschal was most likely overrun by the high costs of energy last year.
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Old 09.09.2009, 10:59
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

Forgot one tiny thing- Is it a legitimate request for me to ask the Verwaltung for copies of the supporting vendor invoices?

Sorry, but in my line of work I see errors in this kind of stuff all the time. Not to mention the occasional fraud/defalcation. I know this is Switzerland, but believe me, it can happen anywhere.
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Old 09.09.2009, 11:02
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

Thank you for the response. Yes, cable TV is in there, but it's credited back to each renter for some reason. i.e. it looks like I am not paying for it.

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Welcome to the world of Neben costs. From my experience this is quite normal. The chimney sweep will ensure that the flu from the oil boiler doesn't get sooted up and probably visits once or twice a year.

Nebenkosten:
Elektrizität und Abfallbeseititung ~ 1000 CHF
Wasserversorgung ~ 1800 CHF
Verwaltungskosten 4% plus MWST ~ 170 CHF

-Warm water is "pauschal" in my contract, so why do I have to pay for it in the Nebenkosten?- There is probably a meter somewhere that is measuring your usage.

Not sure about electricity / may be there is a thermostat switch used, Abfallbeseitigung - the bins have to be cleaned periodically. Water OK.
Verwaltungskosten - Management fee - depends upon your contract.

There is no cable tv in there, that is normally there.

Bottom line - it is probably all above board, but speak to your landlord if you have any concerns. You can always increase your monthly payment to cover the additional cost.
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  #8  
Old 09.09.2009, 11:26
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

My landlord included copies of the invoices from the heating fuel supplier but not the smaller items.
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Old 09.09.2009, 11:27
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

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Forgot one tiny thing- Is it a legitimate request for me to ask the Verwaltung for copies of the supporting vendor invoices?

Sorry, but in my line of work I see errors in this kind of stuff all the time. Not to mention the occasional fraud/defalcation. I know this is Switzerland, but believe me, it can happen anywhere.
yes it is fine.
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  #10  
Old 09.09.2009, 12:00
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

The 'extra costs' have been normally higher than we'd expected.

Our verwaltung's firma normally includes in the bill, the copies from the heating/ water treatment/lighting /cleaning company....so no one could argue and so...
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Old 09.09.2009, 14:18
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

Welcome to the world of Nebenkosten surprises. Rarely does anyone get any money back.

You are entitled to see invoices and how the calculations are arrived at. Just ask for the back up.
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Old 09.09.2009, 14:46
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

Hello all and Hi

Pls note this as a tenant you are paying akonto rechnung everey second month and end of the year you will get a letter with bill direkt from elektricity board with full details if u have used more or less if the amount is less then which u have paid then they will reduce the amount for next year,or they will increase the amount,

but in your case sounds like a missusing a tenant from verwaltung.
only you are resposible for the elektricity indside your appartment they cant calkulate out side or keller etc for your bill.of course you have right to ask for the details from your verwaltung.
other thing is kaminfeger ect you are not responsible,this is the duty of verwaltung.

final thing is check your agreement if there is some sounds with miete Including nebenkosten or alone nebenkosten.if Including it means you dont have to pay.only elektricity.if not Including then chek hou much netto miete and nebenkosten. i cant give you are proper answer because its everything is written in the agreement.

My Opinion is all of you after singing your agreement be member of rental association (Mieterverband)its kost only 89sfr per year.they will help you for every problem.
in the remarks (bemerkung)write the name Hr Issadeen he is adjuctator of this association.
if zou want some more Informations go to WWW.Mieterverband.ch you will get more.
Thanks
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Old 11.09.2009, 18:44
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

I Think this link could be help u more


Zulässige/unzulässige Heiz- und Nebenkosten
Always before you pay anything check your agreement.from beginnig of next year can also ask for rental reduktions for 3 prozent.because Hypothikar zins are going down.
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Old 11.09.2009, 21:10
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

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Hello all and Hi

for the elektricity indside your appartment they cant calkulate out side or keller etc for your bill.

other thing is kaminfeger ect you are not responsible,this is the duty of verwaltung.
both of the above statements are not correct.

from what I can gather your nebenkostenabrechnung seems to be fair, but if unsure do speak to the Mieteverband, they'll be able to advise you.

130.- sounds really low to me, and that would bug me. surely the landlord would be able to estimate your payments better based on previous years.

if I remember correctly any invoices on top of your monthly payments should not be higher than a certain percentage. this to avoid landlords renting out seemingly cheap flats only for tenants to get a hefty invoice at the end of the year. another thing you could check with the Mieterverband.
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Old 11.09.2009, 21:29
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

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As far as I can tell my contract only calls for me to pay Heating Costs. Is there something in the Swiss Code that says I have to pay all of these costs?

Specifically, I am wondering:
-Why do I have to pay for Kaminfeger when I don't have a fireplace?
-Why doesn't the landlord pay for Verwaltungskosten? It's his choice to use them.
-Warm water is "pauschal" in my contract, so why do I have to pay for it in the Nebenkosten?
-Why is Electricity and Garbage disposal there also? I pay my eletricity separately each quarter and I buy my Zurisacks at Migros.
you do have a chimney - you have a heating system, might be oil, wood pellets, gas.. the chimney sweep comes once or twice a year to clean the chimney and burning system.
most landlords have a verwaltung - a manager for their property investment - its just want they do here. yes you do have the privilege of living in his/her property. I think every renter pays this too.
Don't know about the hot water, but depending on how its heated?
You have to pay for the electricity to light the passageways and possibly the laundry facilities depending on if its coin-operated pay-as-you-go or not. at least you have for the lights.

think of it this way - just like the "tax" taken from your salary - in NZ where i'm from, we paid a lump sum of 35% tax from our income. this tax went into a bucket for the government to take out in bits and put where they saw fit (i know this coz i worked in the Treasury for the government)
Here they itemise everything!! You still end up paying 35% of your income - call it tax or unemployment insurance, health insurance etc.

at the dentist, my daughter was charged 6.50 chf for the little mask they put over her face (!!) (total bill - 160 chf)
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Old 12.09.2009, 09:36
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

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Welcome to the world of Nebenkosten surprises. Rarely does anyone get any money back.
Really? For the last two years we've had a pleasant surprise in the region of 200-300 franks back each year. This year however we're expecting an underpayment of around 500-600 due to energy price increases.
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Old 12.09.2009, 09:51
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

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Really? For the last two years we've had a pleasant surprise in the region of 200-300 franks back each year. This year however we're expecting an underpayment of around 500-600 due to energy price increases.
YMMV, but Mrs. Doolittle is probably correct that most landlords ending up sending bills for a top-up. Guess you have been lucky.
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Old 13.09.2009, 16:30
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

From next year go for rental reductions

Jetzt müssen auch die Mieten sinken
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Old 13.09.2009, 16:35
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

here is the sample letter to landlord regarding rental reduktions from next year here is the proof table

'Mietzinssenkung: So geht's
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Old 13.09.2009, 17:37
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Re: Nebenkosten bill includes lots of extras. Please help!

The rent seeiking (mietzinsbegehren)letter should be written before 25 of dezember 09 to landlord,rental reduktion should start from first of april 2010,after sending your letter landlord should respond for it.the sample letter u can see it my up thread,the reason of reduktion is (senkung von referenzzins basis von 3.25prozent)
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