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  #41  
Old 21.11.2009, 10:13
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

In many micro-markets, it seems that there is a high demand for renting and a low demand for purchasing (with possibly exceptions being places like Zurich, Geneva, Lausanne).

I'm looking at places that will cost me less than 20'000 per year in financing but will have a yield of over 25'000 in rent (because of the postcode).

It seems in the market in which I'm now actively looking, there are quite a few people very keen to sell. As in desperate.

For those doing calculations on what you can afford, do note that the larger chunk you can drop for deposit, the cheaper it becomes - plus you are not required to amortize as the property will always cover the amount of the loan (for those coming from places where you actually pay off your house, this is quite bizarre, I'm sure!).

Of course all of this depends on how stringent your requirements are and what you see your strategic position to be. If you have strict criteria then you'll be like nileblitz - who I'd say has seen a price/requirements comparison become quite convincing. As they say on TV, it's all about Location, Location, Location!
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  #42  
Old 29.03.2010, 16:55
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

Since I started off this discussion some 4.5 months ago, I feel an obligation to inform the group of where we are at now.

The apartment construction is in full swing, with the basements and the 1st floor (where we'll live) already built. They have started with the second floor now. It is quite an exciting sight.

Meanwhile, I have experienced the "extra" expense phenomenon.

Kitchen - CHF 16'000 was included in the apartment cost. We made small changes and suddenly we are 3 thousand over. Missus and I want Granite for the top... count CHF 5'000 more.

Bathroom(s) - Didn't know that a pharmacie (the cupboard with a light on top of the basin) costs CHF 1000. If we don't choose the crap sanitary ware, we are going to pay around 2-3'000 more.

Electricity - We moved a couple of things around compared to the original plan (only one electric socket in the living room?) - CHF 1'000 extra.

Haven't yet touched the parquet & tiles stuff, but I'm sure will cost a bit more than the cost included in the original price.

Ah well, you learn something new everyday .

Cheers,
Nileblitz
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  #43  
Old 29.03.2010, 17:19
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

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Since I started off this discussion some 4.5 months ago, I feel an obligation to inform the group of where we are at now.

The apartment construction is in full swing, with the basements and the 1st floor (where we'll live) already built. They have started with the second floor now. It is quite an exciting sight.

Meanwhile, I have experienced the "extra" expense phenomenon.

Kitchen - CHF 16'000 was included in the apartment cost. We made small changes and suddenly we are 3 thousand over. Missus and I want Granite for the top... count CHF 5'000 more.

Bathroom(s) - Didn't know that a pharmacie (the cupboard with a light on top of the basin) costs CHF 1000. If we don't choose the crap sanitary ware, we are going to pay around 2-3'000 more.

Electricity - We moved a couple of things around compared to the original plan (only one electric socket in the living room?) - CHF 1'000 extra.

Haven't yet touched the parquet & tiles stuff, but I'm sure will cost a bit more than the cost included in the original price.

Ah well, you learn something new everyday .

Cheers,
Nileblitz
tjaa...welcome to crazy inflated prices of CH. I heard from a buddy who just wanted to have a tub moved about a meter or so (place is new, unfinished, nothing in place) and they qutoted CHF3k for this...insance costs for additional plugs etc etc.
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  #44  
Old 29.03.2010, 17:44
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

@nileblitz;

I have written elsewhere that you should expect to pay 10% more than the total price for bringing a new property up to your standards. We paid CHF100 per extra for each socket and CHF250 per sunken spot light. If the concrete is dry, it's too late to order these anyway.

Electric roller blinds are worth having. Never take laminate instead of parket...
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  #45  
Old 02.04.2010, 15:23
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

@abfab

As you said, once the concrete is dry its too late. We were asked by the electrician if we wanted some special stuff, spotlights in some places for decor, etc. To keep the cost under control, we rejected all the "extra" stuff, e.g. - 3 sunken spotlights in a cubby hole in the living room to keep some decorative stuff. We also rejected electric blinds coz they were expensive. Should've seen your post earlier.

For us it was CHF 180 for each extra socket and 5K for the kitchen granite (the wife absolutely wanted granite... nothing else can do). Still bracing for the sanitary ware offer. Surely it will be another dent in the budget.

But its fun...
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  #46  
Old 02.04.2010, 23:04
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

if the concrete hasnt been poured yet think about putting in more tubes than you need to begin with to allow for future flexibility e.g. for network connections and sound.
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  #47  
Old 03.04.2010, 12:39
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

Good thread.
One of the useful tips that was hinted at is the price/sq metre. If you can find out the usual range for the area where you plan to purchase then you get a good view of whether your proposed purchase is at a reasonable cost or at an extreme that requires further thought & investigation.
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  #48  
Old 03.04.2010, 12:52
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

About price negotiation for second hand places;
On second hand places in multiple ownership (like a block of apartments) the owners often pay about 1% per year into a renovation/repair fund.
If the place you are buying does not have a renovation/repair fund then it is usual to ask for a 1% price reduction for each year since it was built or had a major renovation.
Like with any other negotiation you are not guaranteed an agreed price reduction but even if you do not get the full amount you can find this is a good lever towards getting a decent price reduction.
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  #49  
Old 09.05.2010, 08:31
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

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One of the useful tips that was hinted at is the price/sq metre. If you can find out the usual range for the area where you plan to purchase then you get a good view of whether your proposed purchase is at a reasonable cost or at an extreme that requires further thought & investigation.
Very true.

However, I have to warn you from the following:

To my surprise, it seems many apartments/houses are advertised using wrong data, for example saying it is 120 sq meter when it is only 112.

How can you find it out? You can visit and measure yourself (rather tedious task) or ask for the (real Architect) plans.
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Old 09.05.2010, 09:47
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

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Very true.

However, I have to warn you from the following:

To my surprise, it seems many apartments/houses are advertised using wrong data, for example saying it is 120 sq meter when it is only 112.

How can you find it out? You can visit and measure yourself (rather tedious task) or ask for the (real Architect) plans.

I've seen total m2 calculations including balconies. Cheeky! I Also refused buying a certain flat because the extra costs proportion was determined by size including the garden, so the garden flat was paying more than the huge penthouse.
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  #51  
Old 10.05.2010, 08:01
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

There are rules (even laws in some countries) for calculating the "total usable space" in an apartment.

Usually, Walls are not counted in and balconies are counted for half their surface, but many house owners try to ignore this little detail to their advantage.

I intensively searched the Internet for the Swiss Rules on "Nettowohnfläche" but mostly found information related to rental apartments.
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  #52  
Old 15.05.2010, 21:58
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

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Since I started off this discussion some 4.5 months ago, I feel an obligation to inform the group of where we are at now.

The apartment construction is in full swing, with the basements and the 1st floor (where we'll live) already built. They have started with the second floor now. It is quite an exciting sight.

Meanwhile, I have experienced the "extra" expense phenomenon.

Kitchen - CHF 16'000 was included in the apartment cost. We made small changes and suddenly we are 3 thousand over. Missus and I want Granite for the top... count CHF 5'000 more.

Bathroom(s) - Didn't know that a pharmacie (the cupboard with a light on top of the basin) costs CHF 1000. If we don't choose the crap sanitary ware, we are going to pay around 2-3'000 more.

Electricity - We moved a couple of things around compared to the original plan (only one electric socket in the living room?) - CHF 1'000 extra.

Haven't yet touched the parquet & tiles stuff, but I'm sure will cost a bit more than the cost included in the original price.

Ah well, you learn something new everyday .

Cheers,
Nileblitz

Keep an eye on what extra you are asking for and always make sure the builder puts this quote down in writing as in my experience they tried to pull the wool over my eyes and come up with all these extra costs from contractors afterwards! Now the contractors are sending me the bills 2 years on when this was snagging stuff to be paid for by the builder. I just send them onto the builder. Keep a running total and check their costings!

I would not let them choose my bathroom stuff as it the promotion was cr..p. First i got the shops webpage chose my stuff then got the architect to take me to the shop in question and ordered myself villroy and bocsh costing it myself ( so i knew if it was over the budget) this was cheaper than the promotion and better! Good taps cost a lot by the way and my granite in the kitchen was dear too.Check on the tiles in bathroom as i was told i was in budget but they decided to bill me an extra 15,000 chf for laying them and thought i wouldn't notice of course i didn't pay it wasn't in the quote! Also check they have ordered the correct tiles as a lot of people in our building had incorrect tiles put up , i had incorrect border tiles put up.

Another thing i paid over all the money on completion as they would not hand over the keys until i did. I had a lot of snagging because of shody workmanship. Plugsockets in wrong places, taps not lined up wood missing on walls ,broken tiles etc ,etc garden not finished , patio not laid. It took them months to to it and their are still problems they didn't finish. There are also problems coming from within the building which is directly affecting my apartment i found out afterwards and I'm still fighting to solve this 2 years on. Its a holiday apartment in the French side i was having my furniture delivered etc so things were a bit tight for the removals and i needed the keys of course. In England you don't get your property without the cash being paid in full so of course i didn't think there would be any problem here in Switzerland.

I later found out the that the other owners that completed before me didn't hand over their money until they had got all their snagging done. This is why they insisted on my money upfront.

I strongly advice you to not hand over all of your money until 150% sure its all ok and you are happy and also give yourself a period of time from expected completion to the completion with ALL the snagging completly done. In my experience these contractors work at their own pace manyana pace and when the builder has your cash can't be bothered! And unfortunatley the builders can be as crooked as they are in any country.

I wish luck with your new home and hope you don't come across as many problems as i did.
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  #53  
Old 06.12.2010, 16:57
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

Revisiting this post again to give an update.

The apartment is ready (well almost). We will get the keys this week and we will be moving in on 22nd December. Packing stuff from the old apartment has started and it seems will never end!

In the end we ended up paying 13K extra. The main thing I regret "removing" from the original offer is the pharmacie and the bathroom lights. We still haven't bought them and will be a rush and a worry at the last moment to avoid us bathing in the dark. Plus, need to find someone to fix those things on our new tiles and hoping that the guy wont break anything.

The electrician (to fix up the lights), movers and cleaners (for the old apartment) are reserved for the specific dates.

We've ordered a couple of new sofa's and will soon be buying some carpets to make the place a bit cozier. When I asked the saleswoman that we wanted the sofa's delivered on 23rd December, she laughed and said "ah... vous etes choux"... (loosely translated as... sooo cute, you want us to deliver when we will all be on vacation?) but in the end said "we'll see what we can do". Hopefully we won't be sitting on the floor (and if we will, hopefully the floor will be warm).

I will put up some pics once we have settled in.

Cheers,
N.
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Old 06.12.2010, 18:10
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Re: Buying an apartment - Price negotiation

We completed our purchase in March after a 13 month build.

It has been the most painful property purchase we ever made.

I wish I had some of the info shared here.

13k over the original budget deserves a round of applause!

We added 130k to the builders budget, it should have 250k!

As you have found out their budgets for any thing from floors, kitchens garden bathrooms etc etc are for crap and generally can never be met.

The advise from our builder was poor as was that from the architect.

So, the house is finished, we are generally happy, but we have another 50 to 60K to spend before we have exactly what we want.

It would be interesting to know what the price per sq mtr is from area to area. 5 to 6 k for an apartment sounds very reasonable to me. we looked at one in Lutry. The original price was just over 15k per sq metre. After signing the contracts, paying our deposit etc, they proceeded to give us an additional invoice for 110,000 Chf's for upgrades, the developer had decided on, not even our choices. So per sq mtr just over 16k!

Good luck with your move, hope it all goes well for and you have furniture to sit on.
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