Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25.11.2009, 13:09
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Luzern
Posts: 1
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
saminluzern has no particular reputation at present
Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

We bought an apartment in Lucerne 2 years ago, we bought it on the basis that the nebenkosten would be around 300chf per month, we have now gone from 300chf to 450cf to 850chf and now we just received another bill for 1200chf. We have been to the HEV, lawyers etc. and no-one seems to be able to hlep us. We wish we had never bought this place and cant even sell it with these costs attached to it. Can anyone reccommend an englsih speaking lawyer who specialises in property purchasing in CH that could possibly help us? We feel we were mislead into buying this apartment and want to get it sorted out asap.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks
Sam
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 25.11.2009, 13:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 1,969
Groaned at 165 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 1,132 Times in 622 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architeckt and Verwaltung

Quote:
View Post
We bought an apartment in Lucerne 2 years ago, we bought it on the basis that the nebenkosten would be around 300chf per month, we have now gone from 300chf to 450cf to 850chf and now we just received another bill for 1200chf.
Many thanks
Sam
There has to be an explanation for the increases and a justification for the bill of CHF 1200.
Surely residents cannot be expected to find that kind of money suddenly?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25.11.2009, 13:27
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,715
Groaned at 54 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 9,623 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architeckt and Verwaltung

Any Nebenkosten charges should be itemised.

What unreasonable or unnecessary charges are being applied?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25.11.2009, 13:28
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,914
Groaned at 467 Times in 373 Posts
Thanked 21,146 Times in 8,695 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architeckt and Verwaltung

Quote:
View Post
We bought an apartment in Lucerne 2 years ago, we bought it on the basis that the nebenkosten would be around 300chf per month, we have now gone from 300chf to 450cf to 850chf and now we just received another bill for 1200chf. We have been to the HEV, lawyers etc. and no-one seems to be able to hlep us. We wish we had never bought this place and cant even sell it with these costs attached to it. Can anyone reccommend an englsih speaking lawyer who specialises in property purchasing in CH that could possibly help us? We feel we were mislead into buying this apartment and want to get it sorted out asap.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks
Sam


Do you have meetings with the appartment owners? What do they say?

I believe these normally happen at least once a year and are chaired by the Verwaltung.

Does the breakdown of costs make sense (you do have a breakdown of costs, I presume?)

Which of these costs are increasing so much?

Our costs went up slightly due to the Verwaltung giving themselves a pay-rise but also, to ensure there wasn't a deficit in the repairs fund.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 25.11.2009, 13:54
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,250
Groaned at 121 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

We're in a similar (though not so extreme situation). When we bought our appt, the monthly charges were quoted at 380.- per month, but we hear now they are going to be 490.-. When the appts were built and the 1st owners moved in 3 years ago, their charges were 280.-. We have actually requested an extraordinary meeting with the Gerancier (Verwaltung) to discuss this and other issues (security, maintenance etc) for next week.

You realise you are quite entitled to change your Verwaltung, if you believe they are not doing a fair and reasonable job, don't you?

About your charges, you should receive a yearly breakdown, including justifications for any increases.
__________________
Stealing jokes off the internet and passing them off as my own since 1995
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25.11.2009, 14:01
magic's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 575 Times in 275 Posts
magic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
We bought an apartment in Lucerne 2 years ago, we bought it on the basis that the nebenkosten would be around 300chf per month, we have now gone from 300chf to 450cf to 850chf and now we just received another bill for 1200chf. We have been to the HEV, lawyers etc. and no-one seems to be able to hlep us. We wish we had never bought this place and cant even sell it with these costs attached to it. Can anyone reccommend an englsih speaking lawyer who specialises in property purchasing in CH that could possibly help us? We feel we were mislead into buying this apartment and want to get it sorted out asap.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks
Sam
I did have a good contact but cannot find it at the moment. We have several other friends who have bought here and experienced similar problems post purchase, including never ending bills coming from lawyers/notaries.

Wish you luck sorting it out.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25.11.2009, 14:02
Goldtop's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,857
Groaned at 11 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 905 Times in 625 Posts
Goldtop has a reputation beyond reputeGoldtop has a reputation beyond reputeGoldtop has a reputation beyond reputeGoldtop has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
We bought an apartment in Lucerne 2 years ago, we bought it on the basis that the nebenkosten would be around 300chf per month, we have now gone from 300chf to 450cf to 850chf and now we just received another bill for 1200chf. We have been to the HEV, lawyers etc. and no-one seems to be able to hlep us. We wish we had never bought this place and cant even sell it with these costs attached to it. Can anyone reccommend an englsih speaking lawyer who specialises in property purchasing in CH that could possibly help us? We feel we were mislead into buying this apartment and want to get it sorted out asap.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks
Sam
The Nebenkosten are decided and approved by the condominium owners association. Neither the architect nor the builder is responsible.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Goldtop for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 25.11.2009, 14:06
magic's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 575 Times in 275 Posts
magic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond reputemagic has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
The Nebenkosten are decided and approved by the condominium owners association. Neither the architect nor the builder is responsible.
Sounds like you need to talk to the other people in the association, I am sure there must be a chairman or equivilant. Should not be too hard then to get to the bottom of these charges, maybe it is increased as a one off for some major works or something.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25.11.2009, 16:46
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 1,969
Groaned at 165 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 1,132 Times in 622 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
Sounds like you need to talk to the other people in the association, I am sure there must be a chairman or equivilant. Should not be too hard then to get to the bottom of these charges, maybe it is increased as a one off for some major works or something.
Talk about one offs.
I recently received a bill for CHF 4,800 for the contribution to the modernistaion of the sewage system of the village.
The ironic thing is that I actually have a sceptic tank which I have pumped out by a firm.
So I obviously queried this as I found out 50% of the rest of the house in the village did (though 90% were actually connected to the sewage)
The Comune informed us that under Section bla bla bla of the we have the Right To Rip You Off Act. that they can enforce payment under Federal Law of those monies and have the powers to put a loan on your property and take the monies if you don't have the monies or are refusing to pay and you have no say.
Basically I had no option to pay the CHF 4,800 and I don't even use the facilities.
I would love to see how your standard UK family would react to receiving a bill like that and ceratinly few would have the ready funds to pay from what I can see.
__________________
I do not have friends..........I have contingent liabilities
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25.11.2009, 17:30
Shove's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 51 Posts
Shove has no particular reputation at present
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
We bought an apartment in Lucerne 2 years ago, we bought it on the basis that the nebenkosten would be around 300chf per month, we have now gone from 300chf to 450cf to 850chf and now we just received another bill for 1200chf. We have been to the HEV, lawyers etc. and no-one seems to be able to hlep us. We wish we had never bought this place and cant even sell it with these costs attached to it. Can anyone reccommend an englsih speaking lawyer who specialises in property purchasing in CH that could possibly help us? We feel we were mislead into buying this apartment and want to get it sorted out asap.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks
Sam

If this is a "normal sized appartment 2.5-4.5 rooms the costs are way too high. However, as previously stated in this thread, they need to be itemised so it should be easy to see if you are being ripped off. I also recommend *talking* to your neighbours, which I hope you have already done. You should all be paying the same amount adjusted for size on most items. Some items get charged per unit not per sqm (A lift may be one of these at a guess), but the Wirtschaftsplan and Abrechnung need to detail how these are charged.
My feeling is either
i) You are being ripped off.
or
ii) You don't understand the costs or have not explained them fully to us. for example if there have been any Sonderumlage (one off bills) to account for work that has been done on the flat.

I also hope you attend an Eigentuemervesammlung (owners meeting) where you can raise issues like this.

I understand your frustration and if (i) is the case above you need to speak to a lawyer. Good luck in sorting this out!
__________________
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. ~ Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:04
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,914
Groaned at 467 Times in 373 Posts
Thanked 21,146 Times in 8,695 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
You should all be paying the same amount adjusted for size on most items. Some items get charged per unit not per sqm (A lift may be one of these at a guess),
Or, as a percentage. A ground floor flat may not have to pay for their share of lift servicing, for example.

You need to check these percentages as well as they may not have been fairly apportioned.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zürich
Posts: 347
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 452 Times in 194 Posts
Ziger has a reputation beyond reputeZiger has a reputation beyond reputeZiger has a reputation beyond reputeZiger has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

You definitely need professional legal advice. Here is a place to start: http://www.swisslawyers.com/en/00_ho...ltsverband.htm.

Good luck in resolving the problems with the Nebenkosten.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:28
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 13,835
Groaned at 271 Times in 177 Posts
Thanked 16,951 Times in 7,172 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

this is the kind of crap that makes people buy instead of rent and damn the inflexibility.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:32
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,009
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,813 Times in 2,052 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Phil, he did buy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Oldhand for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:32
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,086
Groaned at 486 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
this is the kind of crap that makes people buy instead of rent and damn the inflexibility.

eh? this is all about someone who bought
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:32
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,250
Groaned at 121 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
this is the kind of crap that makes people buy instead of rent and damn the inflexibility.
Erm, read the OP again, they did buy.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:34
BasP72's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Adliswil (close to Zurich)
Posts: 1,876
Groaned at 70 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 1,713 Times in 815 Posts
BasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
this is the kind of crap that makes people buy instead of rent and damn the inflexibility.
Ehm, no, the OP bought the apartement
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 25.11.2009, 18:48
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,914
Groaned at 467 Times in 373 Posts
Thanked 21,146 Times in 8,695 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

this is the kind of crap that makes people buy a single detached house rather than an appartment....and damn the inflexibility.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 25.11.2009, 19:34
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,796
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,489 Times in 9,549 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
this is the kind of crap that makes people buy a single detached house rather than an appartment....and damn the inflexibility.
Or for those who cannot afford a single detached house, this is the kind of crap that makes people rent because then at least they can't raise the price disproportionately.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 25.11.2009, 21:25
Goldtop's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,857
Groaned at 11 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 905 Times in 625 Posts
Goldtop has a reputation beyond reputeGoldtop has a reputation beyond reputeGoldtop has a reputation beyond reputeGoldtop has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Being ripped off by Architect and Landlord

Quote:
View Post
If this is a "normal sized appartment 2.5-4.5 rooms the costs are way too high. However, as previously stated in this thread, they need to be itemised so it should be easy to see if you are being ripped off. I also recommend *talking* to your neighbours, which I hope you have already done. You should all be paying the same amount adjusted for size on most items. Some items get charged per unit not per sqm (A lift may be one of these at a guess), but the Wirtschaftsplan and Abrechnung need to detail how these are charged.
My feeling is either
i) You are being ripped off.
or
ii) You don't understand the costs or have not explained them fully to us. for example if there have been any Sonderumlage (one off bills) to account for work that has been done on the flat.

I also hope you attend an Eigentuemervesammlung (owners meeting) where you can raise issues like this.

I understand your frustration and if (i) is the case above you need to speak to a lawyer. Good luck in sorting this out!
OP should have been invited to the meeting of the owners' association where the contribution increase was decided.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
apartment, architect, builders, house, landlord, legal, nebenkosten, purchase, verwaltung




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Freelance Consultants - How NOT to get ripped off by intermediaries defcon3 Employment 32 18.08.2017 16:55
Feel like Im getting ripped off by Lebara Aleisha Complaints corner 15 24.08.2009 18:51
Have I been ripped-off? transition Employment 25 09.12.2008 20:34
am i getting ripped off - help leinbachj Employment 15 29.11.2008 18:43
Renting in Geneva - don't get ripped off Dan75 Housing in general 0 22.07.2008 11:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0