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  #21  
Old 30.03.2010, 11:08
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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For first 15 years, you pay interest plus 1% of capital per year, so by year 15 you own 35% and have a 65% mortgage. At that point, they let you keep paying interest only for as long as you want, so no requirement to continue paying capital if you don't want.....
does this mean that you actually never repay your mortgage and you keep re-mortaging your house on interest-only basis every so often until you sell it and cash in on the (small) equity?
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Old 30.03.2010, 11:27
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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does this mean that you actually never repay your mortgage and you keep re-mortaging your house on interest-only basis every so often until you sell it and cash in on the (small) equity?
If you want to yes (although even 35% of a house in Switzerland is still going to be a decent chunk of equity ) but I believe you can pay off more if/when you want to. At the moment, I don't want to pay any more of my mortgage off than I have to, as the interest rate is lower than I can get in a savings account...
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  #23  
Old 30.03.2010, 11:31
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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The mortgage term may be for 10 years, but you don't have to pay off everything in that time. In fact, the way it works as explained to me by the UBS man is:

20% deposit, so 80% mortgage.

When your fixed term deal ends in 5 or 10 years time, you simply negotiate a new mortgage deal at the rates applicable at that point.

For first 15 years, you pay interest plus 1% of capital per year, so by year 15 you own 35% and have a 65% mortgage. At that point, they let you keep paying interest only for as long as you want, so no requirement to continue paying capital if you don't want.

To compare to the UK, the mortgage may be for 20 or 25 years, but often it is fixed rate for a certain period, and you would normally expect to renegotiate the mortgage several times over the years.
Brilliant, thanks for the explanation!

What if you scrimp and save and manage to send them an extra 200CHF/month - does that come straight off the capital, or is it still mostly interest like your main mortgage payment?
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  #24  
Old 30.03.2010, 11:33
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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er... silly question maybe - but is 10 years really the longest term normally available?
If you would prefer the security of knowing what your monthly payments are going to be then you can fix for a longer period of time. You just need to ask. On their website ZKB indicate that they will offer mortgages for up to 15 years. Fixed mortgages are typically based on the swap curve plus a spread. As the CHF swap curve goes out to 30 years, you could in theory fix for that length of time, though probably not advisable.

We got our mortgage with ZKB and I found them to be very professional and competitive.
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Old 30.03.2010, 11:44
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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Brilliant, thanks for the explanation!

What if you scrimp and save and manage to send them an extra 200CHF/month - does that come straight off the capital, or is it still mostly interest like your main mortgage payment?
With a mortgage, the interest costs are fixed based on your current deal. So assume you have a 500k mortgage and are paying 2.4% interest. So your monthly interest cost is 1k. If you pay more than 1k, then you are not paying off more interest, because you don't owe any more interest, so it will come off the capital.

To continue the example, if you pay off 200 per month extra, then for year two you will have a mortgage of 497,600, so your interest costs will only be 995.20 per month in year two. If you keep paying 1,200 per month, then you will pay off another 2,457.60 in capital in year two, leaving a mortgage of 495,142.40, so in year 3 the interest would be only 990.28 per month, etc., etc.
The Small Print:
NB this assumes you are on a fixed rate deal at 2.4% and that they recalculate the interest costs only once per year. Some mortgages may recalculate interest costs daily/monthly which would make the actual amounts slightly better.
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  #26  
Old 30.03.2010, 11:46
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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One way of doing your mortgage is to split it the main mortgage in to divide it into 3 parts. For example if you you Sfr 900k on mortgage "split" it into 3 and have 1/3rd on fixed at 4 or 5 years, 1/3rs fixed for 10 years and 1/3rd either fixed or floating, as you wish.

The big advantage is that you can iron out any increases in the rates and any decrease won't depress you so much as the fixed terms come to an end at different periods, so if the rate moves from 2% to 6% you only get hit on 1/3rd of your mortgage, similar if the rate decreases.

At present rates are very low and unlikely to go much lower, in any case to hit the absolute bottom is as hard as hitting the absolute top.

With a fully fixed mortgage, big advantages to my mind are you don't need to contiunualy check if the floating rate is moving and get all sweaty if you see a 0.10% rise AND you know exactly what you pay each month and for how long.
From what I've read, the main problem with segmenting your mortgage like that is that you're then tied into the same bank because your various mortgages end at different times e.g. if your 3 years fixed rate comes to an end but your 6 year fixed rate continues, you can't just take that 3 year fixed tranche to another bank to re-negotiate. Therefore its in the bank's interest to carve your mortgage into segments because it ties you in.
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Old 30.03.2010, 12:06
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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From what I've read, the main problem with segmenting your mortgage like that is that you're then tied into the same bank because your various mortgages end at different times e.g. if your 3 years fixed rate comes to an end but your 6 year fixed rate continues, you can't just take that 3 year fixed tranche to another bank to re-negotiate. Therefore its in the bank's interest to carve your mortgage into segments because it ties you in.

One way of lookin gat it, but once the first 1/3 comes to an end you can always "pay" it off either the hard way in cash or go to another bank and get a mortgage for this 1/3.

You can then promise bank N2 you'll bring the other 2/3's at a later date as in a similar vein you promise Bank N1 you'll bring that errant 1/3 back if they behave and reduce their rates
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  #28  
Old 05.04.2010, 11:45
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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So I went through the Comparis mortgage market (CHF 290 refundable upon completion) and got the following quotes for a 6 year fixed rate mortgage with 20% down. The figure unless otherwise stated is for both the mortgage 1 and mortgage 2 (amortisation i.e. the bit that eventually gets paid off).

BPS (Suisse) 2.5%
Bank Coop 2.4%
money-net.ch 2.3% (mortgage 1) 2.25% variable (mortgage 2)
Baloise Bank SoBa 2.55%
Axa Wintherthur 2.41 %
Regiobank Solothurn 2.45% (mortgage 1) 2.3% (mortgage 2)
Migros Bank 2.475%
Basler Kantonbank 2.33%
Post Finance 2.65%
Helvetica Versicherungen 2.45% (mortgage 1) 3.2% (mortgage 2)
UBS 2.7%

Hope someone finds the info helpful, its certainly saved me a lot of legwork.
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Mea culpa Something I should have mentioned is the fact that some of those are preferential rates offered if you move your current account to the lending bank, or buy some sort of insurance products off them.
Thanks for the info.

BTW I just read that at Coop you can get a 0.25% reduction on your mortgage for 25000 Supercard points, which seems quite good...Or had you already factored that into the 2.4%?
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  #29  
Old 05.04.2010, 12:29
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

If you or your partner are employed by a bank or insurance company you will be able to get an employee discount off mortgage interest. Typically 1% off.

The employer pays the 1% themselves, so it may well apply to employers beyond banks and insurance...
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Old 09.04.2010, 09:42
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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So I went through the Comparis mortgage market (CHF 290 refundable upon completion) and got the following quotes for a 6 year fixed rate mortgage with 20% down. The figure unless otherwise stated is for both the mortgage 1 and mortgage 2 (amortisation i.e. the bit that eventually gets paid off).

BPS (Suisse) 2.5%
Bank Coop 2.4%
money-net.ch 2.3% (mortgage 1) 2.25% variable (mortgage 2)
Baloise Bank SoBa 2.55%
Axa Wintherthur 2.41 %
Regiobank Solothurn 2.45% (mortgage 1) 2.3% (mortgage 2)
Migros Bank 2.475%
Basler Kantonbank 2.33%
Post Finance 2.65%
Helvetica Versicherungen 2.45% (mortgage 1) 3.2% (mortgage 2)
UBS 2.7%

Hope someone finds the info helpful, its certainly saved me a lot of legwork.
Just thought I'd point out that when I presented my Comparis dossier to my UBS mortgage advisor, they agreed to match my best offer (after consulting with his superiors). I'm pretty happy with that since I didn't really want the rigmarole of moving all my accounts, standing orders etc.. over to Basler Kantonbank.

I won't get back the CHF 290 I spent on the Comparis marketplace, but its turned out to be an excellent bargaining tool.
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  #31  
Old 09.04.2010, 11:19
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

Something I found out is that if you buy a "green" house eg. Minergie the rates are much lower (this is the case for Coop but I'd imagine that that is the case for most of the banks?):
http://www.bankcoop.ch/hypotheken/hy...onditionen.htm

2.130 % p.a. for a 5 year mortgage (at Coop)
Not bad
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  #32  
Old 09.04.2010, 11:41
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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Something I found out is that if you buy a "green" house eg. Minergie the rates are much lower (this is the case for Coop but I'd imagine that that is the case for most of the banks?):
http://www.bankcoop.ch/hypotheken/hy...onditionen.htm

2.130 % p.a. for a 5 year mortgage (at Coop)
Not bad
But you'll usually pay a premium for the minergie house as the criteria are quite strict.

Swings and roundabouts really, although over the very long term you should benefit and of course you have the option of being smug about the fact that your house is "greener" and more eco friendly...
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  #33  
Old 09.04.2010, 11:46
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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But you'll usually pay a premium for the minergie house as the criteria are quite strict.

Swings and roundabouts really, although over the very long term you should benefit and of course you have the option of being smug about the fact that your house is "greener" and more eco friendly...
I'm renting a Minergie flat and it's so well insulated that I've never switched the heating on all winter... and if you meet my Missus you'd quickly realise that she doesn't like to be cold... so hopefully in the short term it'll save some money in heating bills
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  #34  
Old 09.04.2010, 12:06
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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Which bank is the best to take a good deal for mortgage?
and is there any tricks or points to be take care?
I've spoken to my bank about a mortgage some time ago, but in the end I haven't found an interesting, affordable property yet.

Only tip for negotiations I can give is to start out from a 3-month rate and negotiate how many basis points you would pay on top of the 3-month LIBOR. A good offer is somewhere between 50-70bp - that means if the 3-month LIBOR is at 0.4% you would pay 0.9-1.1%. Based on this spread, you can then calculate also how much you would pay for a 3 or 5 year fixed rate.

The offers you find on comparis, etc. are not too relevant since the pricing of mortgages is done based on your personal risk profile.
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  #35  
Old 09.04.2010, 13:03
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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Just thought I'd point out that when I presented my Comparis dossier to my UBS mortgage advisor, they agreed to match my best offer (after consulting with his superiors). I'm pretty happy with that since I didn't really want the rigmarole of moving all my accounts, standing orders etc.. over to Basler Kantonbank.

I won't get back the CHF 290 I spent on the Comparis marketplace, but its turned out to be an excellent bargaining tool.
If yo haven't signed yet with UBS, try to remove the non compensation clause (in french) from your contract. If UBS files a bankruptcy, you have to pay the loan within 3 months without taking into account the loss of your financial assets at UBS. If you remove this clause, you will have to pay back the loan minus the lost financial assets. It's worth considering it.
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  #36  
Old 28.03.2012, 14:54
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

Dear all,

I am a mortgage newbie in Switzerland and really struggling with the rationale behind the argument that in Switzerland it is tax-beneficial to have a mortgage. Hoping that someone here can help?

We have found a nice little flat for just under 1m (let's say 1m for ease of calculation) and we are currently considering two scenarios - paying for the property outright (with a big help from our parents) or taking a 50% mortgage 1 (i.e., interest only payments). The two bankers that we have spoken to (CS and UBS) insist that the mortgage 1 is a better deal than outright ownership... but we calculate our total annual outlay as follows:

.................................................. ...Scenario 1 .........Scenario 2

================================================== =

Mortgage 1 amount .......................................0 ...........500,000

Net wealth, property-related ...............1,000,000 ...........500,000

Wealth available to invest
otherwise .................................................. ..0 ...........500,000

================================================== =

Interest expense
(very bad case of 5%) ...................................0 ...........-25,000

Tax@30% on valeur locative/
Eigenmietwert/ imputed rent of
3,500 per month (42,000 per year)
less property-related expenses ................-12,600 .............-5,100

Property-related wealth tax@0.3%
on net wealth (less debts) .......................-3,000 .............-1,500

Interest income assuming
investment@2% (pretty generous?!) .................0 ...........+10,000

================================================== =

Total damage .......................................-15,600 ...........-21,600

I am making some assumptions about tax rates and such, also not including annual maintenance expenses@1% as these would net out to equal numbers in both scenarios as far as I understand it. But these should be relatively minor adjustments in any case.

Are we missing something really big here? We figure that there must be some reason why it is so widely reported, and indeed even done, to hold a mortgage 1 in Switzerland pretty much until you pass it on to your children. But somehow the numbers don't seem to add up when we try.

While this is an old thread, I would be deeply grateful to anyone who could help to shed some light on this as we (and our bankers) are pretty confused!

Many thanks and best regards,
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Old 28.03.2012, 15:39
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

Of course, a lender will always extol the virtues of a loan - it's their job. As they also will about indirect amortisation - the longer they hold an unamortised loan the better for them.

The commonly missed point is that maximising tax efficiency is often not equal to maximising financial efficiency. You *may* pay less tax, but you pay instead mortgage interest, fees etc.

In your example you show a mortgage costing 5% compared to an income from the saved capital of 2%. Ignoring taxes, the maths there surely is easy. If you can invest your saved capital with closer to or better than 5% return, the equation changes. If you then include taxes you must consider your personal marginal rates for income (earned and unearned).

A few observations

- why do you think the Eigenmietwert is less if you have a mortgage ?

- in your calculation i would not consider 'net wealth - property related'. You have 'wealth - property related' (on which you pay wealth tax, alongwith your saved 500k in scenario 2), you then have 500k have debts in scenario 2 on which you receive income tax relief on the interest

- you don't explicitly include capital repayment of the mortgage, but i assume you included that in the 5%
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  #38  
Old 28.03.2012, 15:59
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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Dear all,

I am a mortgage newbie in Switzerland ....,
The value locative doesn't change. That's the rent on the property, not on what you owe on the property.

What happens if you change from "very bad case" to "very good case" to "in the middle case"? How many years can we get the "very good case" as opposed to the very bad case? How good are you at investing else where? (I'm bad at it! ) What else could you do with the money? etc.

Personally, I don't think I'd put all my eggs into a house. It's just feels so wrong!

Another thing I see is that you changed the "wealth tax" amount as well. You still pay taxes on the other 500K even though it's in cash. So that number should be the same as well.
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Old 28.03.2012, 16:00
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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does this mean that you actually never repay your mortgage and you keep re-mortaging your house on interest-only basis every so often until you sell it and cash in on the (small) equity?
If you want to reduce the mortgage like in UK over a period of 20 years or so,what you can also do is separate the mortgage amount into 2 parts, the large chunk with fixed interest payment for 5 years and the smaller chunk into a variable 3 or 6 months LIBOR interest rate based mortgage. Each year end you can reduce the variable mortgage loan by paying back some amount x. Do note however that this increases your property stake thereby increasing the personal wealth value for tax returns, this is not much though you may want to weigh the benefits of paying back your loan.
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Old 28.03.2012, 16:34
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Re: Mortgage loan for house

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If you want to reduce the mortgage like in UK over a period of 20 years or so,what you can also do is separate the mortgage amount into 2 parts, the large chunk with fixed interest payment for 5 years and the smaller chunk into a variable 3 or 6 months LIBOR interest rate based mortgage. Each year end you can reduce the variable mortgage loan by paying back some amount x. Do note however that this increases your property stake thereby increasing the personal wealth value for tax returns, this is not much though you may want to weigh the benefits of paying back your loan.
The reason people don't pay off the mortgage is to offset the interest against the tax payable on the notional rental income. It sounds like renting to me, just less flexable
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