Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 31.05.2007, 22:59
bozothedeathmachine's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Arni, AG
Posts: 324
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 177 Times in 82 Posts
bozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeable
Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Obviously I don't speak German. However, my wife does and she also doesn't know what this word means in context. I found a flat online that's around 1700CHf, however the Anteilscheine is 9000CHf, which is really steep if it means "deposit".

Any ideas?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 31.05.2007, 23:27
Nathu's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,674
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,248 Posts
Nathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

It's a share certificate and I think it's not an unusual amount for building cooperations. Our rent is about 1000 Fr. and our share certificate is about 10'000 Fr., if I remember correctly. I can look it up tomorrow, if I don't forget it.

Building cooperations (Baugenossenschaft) are common among landlords in urban areas, historically they were founded to provide cheap appartments. Somebody had to invest money to build them and leasers take over a part of the investment for the time of their stay.

// Looked it up, it's 8000 Fr.

Last edited by Nathu; 01.06.2007 at 00:14.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01.06.2007, 00:36
bozothedeathmachine's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Arni, AG
Posts: 324
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 177 Times in 82 Posts
bozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeable
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

So that means 9000CHf up front for the pleasure of living there? Do you get that money back?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01.06.2007, 00:56
Nathu's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,674
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,248 Posts
Nathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Yes and yes.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01.06.2007, 01:09
bozothedeathmachine's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Arni, AG
Posts: 324
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 177 Times in 82 Posts
bozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeable
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

One last teeny tiny question. I read in the "Living and Working in Switzerland" book that when deposits are made on flats they should collect interest. Is it the same with Anteilscheines as well?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01.06.2007, 01:43
Nathu's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,674
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,248 Posts
Nathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Interest is at least not a given, the handling is defined in each building corporation's articles of corporation. Some explicitely exclude interest on Anteilsscheine, others annually decide about the existence and height of an interest rate but say that it must be low enough to avoid Swiss stamp tax as a non-profit organisation.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01.06.2007, 03:20
bozothedeathmachine's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Arni, AG
Posts: 324
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 177 Times in 82 Posts
bozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeable
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Ok, I lied: I have more questions. Any idea what they do with that money? It seems pointless to leave it somewhere without it collecting anything. This whole idea is a bit strange to me. Unless of course if it does collect it, but that interest does not go to the tenant. That makes a lot more sense, but is just a way of masking inflating the rent.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01.06.2007, 08:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Quote:
View Post
Ok, I lied: I have more questions. Any idea what they do with that money? It seems pointless to leave it somewhere without it collecting anything. This whole idea is a bit strange to me. Unless of course if it does collect it, but that interest does not go to the tenant. That makes a lot more sense, but is just a way of masking inflating the rent.
Hi It is not such a daft idea really. The money was originally paid to build the place. It therefore countered needing to take a loan with a bank, which might not have been possible. The correct English legal phrase is a certificate of participation and not a share certificate. A share certificate is a different type of legal document which has a free market value. Your piece of paper is tied to the living in the apartment and although you should be able to get your money back there is no guarantee. Furthermore there is no requirement to pay any kind of interest. The principle is identical to the so called shares in golf clubs where you pay $20'000 share, $5000 joining fee and $1000 per year membership. The share money was used to help build the place the joining fee you lose and the membership gives you the privilege. When you leave you sell your share to the new member.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01.06.2007, 08:12
Bartholemew's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: back in Zurich (but pining for Brussels periodically)
Posts: 894
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 622 Times in 320 Posts
Bartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

hi Bozo, my in-laws paid Sfr. 6000.- as an Anteilsschein for their flat in a cooperative-run building, which costs roughly 900.- rent monthly (their rent has actually gone down fractionally since they moved in one year ago). They don't or won't get interest on the amount when they move out and the money is returned to them, but it may vary from cooperative to cooperative. I would think the fact that Baugenossenschafts keep your rent stable even if housing prices go through the roof makes up for the fact that you might not earn interest on your deposit.

The idea of a Baugenossenschaft/cooperative, which is quite common in Zurich, was born out of the idea of ensuring rent stays stable and affordable, esp for families who might have a hard time finding a large enough apartment at an affordable price otherwise. My understanding of how the Baugenossenschaft use your Anteilsschein is to finance upkeep of their buildings and new projects.

I realize it may sound strange giving somebody so much money, but please keep in mind that Baugenossenschafts are actually not-for-profit organizations, so I doubt they would even be able to use your Anteilsschein money for, say securities arbitrage or something like that.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01.06.2007, 09:09
Nathu's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,674
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,248 Posts
Nathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Thanks to you two for explaining it further! Yes, the cooperative will invest the money from the Anteilsschein in existing or new buildings, or for other things benefiting the renters.

Also, because the cooperatives are socially oriented, they rent out adequately sized apparments. They won't give a 6 room appartment to a single person household.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01.06.2007, 09:42
Bartholemew's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: back in Zurich (but pining for Brussels periodically)
Posts: 894
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 622 Times in 320 Posts
Bartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

no worries, you did an excellent job of explaining its complexities. You are also correct to point out that Baugenossenschaft tend to be social-minded when they choose rentors, esp in regard to families.

Quote:
View Post
Thanks to you two for explaining it further! Yes, the cooperative will invest the money from the Anteilsschein in existing or new buildings, or for other things benefiting the renters.

Also, because the cooperatives are socially oriented, they rent out adequately sized apparments. They won't give a 6 room appartment to a single person household.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01.06.2007, 14:51
bozothedeathmachine's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Arni, AG
Posts: 324
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 177 Times in 82 Posts
bozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeablebozothedeathmachine is considered knowledgeable
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Thanks everyone. It's making more sense now. I imagine keeping rent stable is a good thing in such a hot market. Now to just see if I can dig up the extra cash.

I appreciate all of the help.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10.06.2007, 22:16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AG
Posts: 333
Groaned at 6 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 107 Times in 79 Posts
Wakey is considered knowledgeableWakey is considered knowledgeableWakey is considered knowledgeable
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Nice thread, very helpful. I was looking for info on this subject but couldn't find anything using the search. Let me add some words so that it will show up in the search results: Anteilscheinkapital, Anteilschein
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10.06.2007, 22:27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AG
Posts: 333
Groaned at 6 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 107 Times in 79 Posts
Wakey is considered knowledgeableWakey is considered knowledgeableWakey is considered knowledgeable
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Oh just one more question...

Does the Anteilschein replace a deposit? Because if you'd have to pay for an Anteilschein + deposit you'd have to spend like 15.000 CHF before you can move into your cheap appartment...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10.06.2007, 23:03
Nathu's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,674
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,248 Posts
Nathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Quote:
View Post
Oh just one more question...

Does the Anteilschein replace a deposit? Because if you'd have to pay for an Anteilschein + deposit you'd have to spend like 15.000 CHF before you can move into your cheap appartment...
The Baugenossenschaft is still legally allowed to demand a deposit, but in practice this is extremely rare.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 16.07.2009, 21:45
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zürich
Posts: 14
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
ocube has no particular reputation at present
co-operative housing [Anteilsscheine der Genossenschaft]

Hey Everyone

Does anyone know what 'Anteilsscheine der Genossenschaft' means? I am interested in an apartment and the details say I pay an amount which is 'Anteilsscheine der Genossenschaft' in place of a deposit (3% interest). From Google translation tool, I think it means co-operative housing but I am concerned it may not mean the same thing as a co-operative house in the UK.

Please if anyone understands this or has experience of this type of rent please give generous advice.

Warm Regards (28° & climbing)

ocube
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 18.07.2009, 12:40
Bartholemew's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: back in Zurich (but pining for Brussels periodically)
Posts: 894
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 622 Times in 320 Posts
Bartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond reputeBartholemew has a reputation beyond repute
Re: co-operative housing [Anteilsscheine der Genossenschaft]

hi Ocube, you will find a good explanation of how the cooperative system works here:
Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Bartholemew for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 19.07.2009, 22:04
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zürich
Posts: 14
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
ocube has no particular reputation at present
Re: co-operative housing [Anteilsscheine der Genossenschaft]

Thanks Bartholemew

You are such a lifesaver... I thought my question was going to set a record for longest unanswered post!

Have a lovely week

ocube
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 13.03.2015, 11:44
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
tomatisp has no particular reputation at present
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Does anyone knows how do you get the "Anteilscheine" back when you leave the country?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 13.03.2015, 12:00
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 20,594
Groaned at 437 Times in 328 Posts
Thanked 21,282 Times in 11,182 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does "Anteilscheine" mean "deposit"?

Quote:
View Post
Does anyone knows how do you get the "Anteilscheine" back when you leave the country?
Find someone to buy it from you.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anteilsscheine, baugenossenschaft, genossenschaft




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"L" vs. "B" work permit van_niel Permits/visas/government 8 11.03.2007 12:14
"Sunrise ADSL talk&more" and wireless router/modem CharvelInVesenaz TV/internet/telephone 6 01.03.2007 23:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0