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Old 02.05.2010, 21:13
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Limit to number of occupants in an apartment - Problem with caretaker !

Dear members,

We live in a nice apartment since 3 years and signed the rental agreement which stated - residency unit for 1 to 2 people (and no other phrase written like- no pets or children allowed). Around a month back we were blessed with a baby and thus increased our family count to 3 members in our 2 Zimmer apartment.

Few days earlier while going out for evening walk we were stopped by another resident of our apartment(a self proclaimed caretaker of the apartment, owner does not stays in the apartment). She asked us if this is our baby then we are not allowed to stay here since walls are not thick enough to stop the noise made by baby. Surprisingly it is not old people residence rather most residents are young people and none of the immediate neighbour is having problems with us staying with the baby. Thus we can say we enjoy neutral to good relation with our immediate neighbours. She said she is going to complaint/inform the agency and we will have to move out of unit. She also said agency must have updated us of this condition when we were taking this apartment on rent, which we denied but since agreement states 1-2 people we later realised possibly she meant that.

Now we have the following dilemma for which suggestions from forum members are welcome:

- We are well settled so do not wish to vacant it just because there is a rule which is not clearly stated in the rental agreement.
- We do not want to spoil relation with the rental agency as have heard that in case we are to move out then the next agency/owner will take our feedback from them and in case that's not OK we might not get the other unit.

Should we ourselves discuss this with agency or let them decide based on complaint from that lady and give us notice/feedback (Agreement also states that either of the party can give notice of 3 months in March or September each year, now March is gone and September is after 4 months) or can agency give us shorter notice to vacate as we are in a way violating agreement that unit is for 1-2 people to stay.

Thanks in advance for suggestions to close this sudden issue for us.

Regards
Kumar
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:29
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

This is Switzerland. Rules are rules. You need to determine if you are in fact violating the rules. The Caretaker has nothing to say about this. This is an issue for the Owner and/or the Rental Agency. You need to be sure what the contract actually says and if there is a grey area then determine if the Owner/Agency are OK with your interpretation of the facts.

Since I know nothing else I can't offer any more constructive advise.
Did you have the child when you moved into your apartment? If there were 3 of you then you may be out of luck.
If this is a new situation and were two to start with and you have enough space then you may not have a problem.

Good Luck,
Brian.
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Last edited by the_clangers; 02.05.2010 at 22:09. Reason: typo
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:30
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

Hi Kumar,

welcome, you have experienced the busy body that seems very common in switzerland.

What you need to do is speak with the rental agency and see what the situation is, get it in writing. If they say all is OK and i doubt they will say it is not, just ignore the idiot.
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:42
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

hi Kumar,

First off, congratulations on your new arrival!!

As the others have stated, you need to know exactly where you stand. There is an association for renters: http://www.mieterverband.ch/smv_top.0.html contact your local one and make an appointment with them, they will quickly tell you if the caretaker is right or not and what your rights are. Their fees are minimal.

Best,

Mrs. T
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:44
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

wow. people really amaze me-obviously either the walls are thick enough or your baby is well behaved because she hasn't heard him so far. not to mention the fact that i don't understand how someone would want to (rudely, it sounds) make a problem for a couple with a brand new baby!
(congrats by the way)
i agree to discuss this directly with your rental agency and see what they say- but just to cover yourself you may want to begin looking for another place to live- it sounds as though this particular neighbor is more interested in making things difficult than being "neighborly" to a couple with a new addition.
good luck
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:45
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

If you are not a member, perhaps it is a good time to sign up with the Mieteverband Zurich for less than CHF100, who can offer you legal advice, amongst other assistance. They speak English as well.

Tellstr. 31, 8004 Zürich

044 296 90 25 (tägl. 10 - 12 und 14 - 16 Uhr)

Mo-Mi 15.30 – 18 Uhr, Do 15.30 – 19 Uhr.



Im Parterre, rechts.
Bus 31 (Haltestelle Kanonengasse)
Bus 31/32 (Haltestelle Militär-/Lantstr.)
Sekretariat:
044 296 90 20

Useful PDF from the MV is here to help understand your agreement.
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:53
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

Congrats for the new baby , Your best bet is to immediately contact your agency. Rules are rules, but if you approach them, agencies can be very helpful or moderate at times.
For example, I stayed in 1 room apartment and wanted my partner to join me and we were waiting for the visa.I requested my agency...Ideally 2 people are not allowed in a room apartment. But Livit gave me all the legal permissions to do so and the no objection paper to hand over to the immigration. ofcourse later we ourselves moved. but that call to the agency and writing a letter to them helped and relieved me of the uncertainty
Good luck
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:54
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

I don't think they have the right to give you notice due to changes in family situation.

I found this on the webpage of Mieterverband:

"Auch eine Kündigung wegen veränderten familiären Verhältnissen der Mieterschaft sind in der Regel missbräuchlich"

http://www.mieterverband.ch/fragen/f...?id=215&shbe=1

And if they do, you will with all probabilities have very high posibilities of a delay up to three years.

Call the Mieterverband tomorrow and ask them. I wouldn't call the Verwaltung before you speak to Mieterverband.
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Old 02.05.2010, 21:54
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

I'm sorry that such a happy event in your life as having a kid should go hand-in-hand with hing as upsetting as being told to get out of an apartment... while I understand "rulez is rulez mang" in this country, it's still bloody cold, and I bet said busybody delivered it in the least impassioned, most emotionless possible way too. Speak to the agency and take advice as suggested. And congrats on the new sprog!
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Old 02.05.2010, 22:06
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

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Dear members,

We live in a nice apartment since 3 years and signed the rental agreement which stated - residency unit for 1 to 2 people (and no other phrase written like- no pets or children allowed). Around a month back we were blessed with a baby and thus increased our family count to 3 members in our 2 Zimmer apartment.

Few days earlier while going out for evening walk we were stopped by another resident of our apartment(a self proclaimed caretaker of the apartment, owner does not stays in the apartment). She asked us if this is our baby then we are not allowed to stay here since walls are not thick enough to stop the noise made by baby. Surprisingly it is not old people residence rather most residents are young people and none of the immediate neighbour is having problems with us staying with the baby. Thus we can say we enjoy neutral to good relation with our immediate neighbours. She said she is going to complaint/inform the agency and we will have to move out of unit. She also said agency must have updated us of this condition when we were taking this apartment on rent, which we denied but since agreement states 1-2 people we later realised possibly she meant that.

Now we have the following dilemma for which suggestions from forum members are welcome:

- We are well settled so do not wish to vacant it just because there is a rule which is not clearly stated in the rental agreement.
- We do not want to spoil relation with the rental agency as have heard that in case we are to move out then the next agency/owner will take our feedback from them and in case that's not OK we might not get the other unit.

Should we ourselves discuss this with agency or let them decide based on complaint from that lady and give us notice/feedback (Agreement also states that either of the party can give notice of 3 months in March or September each year, now March is gone and September is after 4 months) or can agency give us shorter notice to vacate as we are in a way violating agreement that unit is for 1-2 people to stay.

Thanks in advance for suggestions to close this sudden issue for us.

Regards
Kumar
Congratulations on the new addition. I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but most agreements do have a clause under the heading "Maximal Personenzahl". This is in the general conditions accompanying your lease. This is not to say that everyone who has a baby needs to move but a 2 room apartment is not really considered enough space for a couple with a child.

Since you have only just had the baby, I would suggest that you advise management. My guess is they will look to give you notice to the end of September but you are better off to be the one to give notice and look for another apartment.
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Old 02.05.2010, 22:19
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

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I'm sorry that such a happy event in your life as having a kid should go hand-in-hand with hing as upsetting as being told to get out of an apartment... while I understand "rulez is rulez mang" in this country, it's still bloody cold, and I bet said busybody delivered it in the least impassioned, most emotionless possible way too. Speak to the agency and take advice as suggested. And congrats on the new sprog!

If a couple lives in a 4.5 room apartment with two children and has a third child, no one is going to tell them to move. But we are talking about a 2 room apartment which was likely never intended to accommodate more than one or two people and that is what is stated on the lease. In my experience the best way to handle the situation with the agency is to communicate. For a variety of reasons, not everyone moves before they have a first baby and agencies know this. They understand couples wanting to wait until the baby is born, and mom and baby are fine.
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Old 02.05.2010, 22:28
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

My experience is that (some) apartments owners/agencies do prefer fewer persons per room/square meter. That's what told me an agency employee and also acquitances who happen to own some rental properties in this country. The reason qouted was less wear and tear.
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Old 02.05.2010, 22:29
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

Wouldn't it be dependent on when the baby had arrived ?

In case you didn't know about it when you signed your lease and moved into the appartment, I would find it unblievable and absolutely inhuman to throw you out. If on the other hand you knew about it and simply didn't count the baby as a person - at least as far as the lease is concerned - then your cards are not so good.
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Old 02.05.2010, 22:40
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

Here is another link discussing the topic.

http://www.hev-zuerich.ch/ms-zeitsch...-200807-12.htm

This is a link to the Houseowner association and it is interesting to note that even they write that birth of a child is usually not a valid reason for notice. It would only be reason for notice if the apartment was very small, i.e. a very small one room apartment. Praxis in Zürich is that the number of people has to be more than number of rooms + 2 to be considered "over-utilization". So in a two room apartment it would have to be more than 4 people living there for it to be reason for notice.

It is also to be assumed that if a young couple rents an apartment, one can expect there will be a child living there in the future.
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Old 02.05.2010, 23:09
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

I think it would be a good idea to communicate your new addition to the family to the rental company or owner, ignore the so-called "caretaker" (a.k.a. miserable git), but be polite and honest about your situation. Hopefully everything will be alright.
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Old 02.05.2010, 23:14
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

Landlord' side of things.

Other tenents might complain which then gives aggrevation for Landlord.

As a Landlord I recently signed a contract for three years with a tenent (a couple with her pregnant).
When they signed the contract, they said that they wanted to put 4 occupants because they were intending to have two children.
As soon as the contract was signed; the wife's parents moved in as well.

I find this rather dishonest - I should have expected that - They originated from Southern Italy - Crooks W.U.

Coming to think about it; the problems are always the non-Swiss W.U.
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Old 02.05.2010, 23:21
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

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Landlord' side of things.

Other tenents might complain which then gives aggrevation for Landlord.

As a Landlord I recently signed a contract for three years with a with a tenent
Did it have a "no babies" clause? Otherwise, I'm sorry but I struggle to see the relevance.

The landlord (in that circumstance) should grow a spine and tell any tenants complaining about the new baby that they were that way once, and if they don't like it then it is not a problem for the new parents, or the landlord, but for them, and if anyone should be moving because of it, they should.

@OP - Congratulations and hope it works out with the Mietverband. Good luck
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Old 02.05.2010, 23:58
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

MAte,
Sorry that your tenant apparently being fleeced but I would request you not to generalize that only expats cause problems

(From what I gather from the forum) a majority of us have taken our appartments / houses on rent, hence tend to be from the lenses of a House renter

Your perspective to the problems of landlords and people who rent can be very refreshing as it has the potential for us to see a landlords perspective of things.


Just out of curiosity, why does it matter if in the house they have 4 or 5 people as long as they are not stuffed like sardines into the house?


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Landlord' side of things.

Other tenents might complain which then gives aggrevation for Landlord.

As a Landlord I recently signed a contract for three years with a tenent (a couple with her pregnant).
When they signed the contract, they said that they wanted to put 4 occupants because they were intending to have two children.
As soon as the contract was signed; the wife's parents moved in as well.

I find this rather dishonest - I should have expected that - They originated from Southern Italy - Crooks W.U.

Coming to think about it; the problems are always the non-Swiss W.U.
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Old 03.05.2010, 00:35
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

@kumar: Congratulations to the two of you. I wish you much happiness and a modicum of sleep.

I'm 95% sure that the "complaint" from your "caretaker" has nothing to do with noise and may even be racially motivated. Unfortunately, that's often the way it is with a certain subsection of Swiss society.

I endorse the comments of others here, although I would have no qualms in going straight to the landlord with a simple, polite note to say that you have just had a baby and would like to advise the landlord of this fact, and request an amendment to the lease to increase the maximum occupancy to three. Make no mention of the "caretaker", just pre-empt anything she may say. You are likely to get written approval from the landlord before she even complains about you, in which case she'll be able to do absolutely nothing.

Bollocks about the thickness of the walls, by the way. What if the legally-permitted maximum of two occupants of your flat were yourself and your baby? The "caretaker" would have no leg to stand on.

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I find this rather dishonest - I should have expected that - They originated from Southern Italy - Crooks W.U.

Coming to think about it; the problems are always the non-Swiss W.U.
I have no idea what "W.U." stands for, but I doubt it excuses your blatant bigotry, Gordy-style.
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Old 03.05.2010, 00:40
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Re: Might be forced to move out of apartment - Problem with caretaker !

What possible difference to the "landlord" how many occupants there are? You aren't providing bloody breakfast. You either have the apartment exactly how you want it, or you rent it out to people in exchange for money. The man has a child not an at-home rave business. By the sound of things the problems are always created by the Swiss.

@ Kumar: smile, walk on by and wait for the legal letter. Until it comes, just ignore and have a wonderful day.

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Landlord' side of things.

Other tenents might complain which then gives aggrevation for Landlord.

As a Landlord I recently signed a contract for three years with a tenent (a couple with her pregnant).
When they signed the contract, they said that they wanted to put 4 occupants because they were intending to have two children.
As soon as the contract was signed; the wife's parents moved in as well.

I find this rather dishonest - I should have expected that - They originated from Southern Italy - Crooks W.U.

Coming to think about it; the problems are always the non-Swiss W.U.
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