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  #21  
Old 02.09.2010, 15:06
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Re: Swiss reglamentation about Bidet shower

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But how would the siphoning work when the shower tap is turned off?
We would assume, in examples, that the tap was not turned off, or was broken

(regulations like to cover all possibilities)


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& if the shower is not turned off then the water pressure would stop siphoning.
We're talking about a loss in pressure somewhere else. We don't know (and possibly don't care) where at the moment.

(regulations like to cover all possibilities)

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& if you had a split pipe then that would be a possible unclean source
But this could have a non-siphoning valve fitted ( for example, an outside tap which is also required to have one).

Then, my example might just work.

(regulations like to cover all possibilities)

P.S. I'm not a plumber.
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  #22  
Old 02.09.2010, 15:09
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Re: Swiss reglementation about Bidet shower

UPPPPSSS!!!!! Forget about!! THANKS A LOT))))))
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  #23  
Old 02.09.2010, 15:21
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Re: Swiss reglementation about Bidet shower

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UPPPPSSS!!!!! Forget about!! THANKS A LOT))))))
When you find out what the regulations are, can you post it on this thread so if anyone does a search on Bidet showers, they get an answer.

And so people can add more toilet humour
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  #24  
Old 02.09.2010, 15:31
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Re: Swiss reglementation about Bidet shower

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here is a link for the people that only used toilet paper))
http://www.bidet-shower.co.uk/
I love that the company in your link is based in Chalfont St Peter
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  #25  
Old 02.09.2010, 19:47
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Re: Swiss reglementation about Bidet shower

A bidet shower is a simple shower attachment - usually mounted on the wall next to the porcelain - used in a reach around manner to clean the parts etc.

As opposed to that weird footbath next to the toilet, which is for something else.

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  #26  
Old 02.09.2010, 20:57
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Re: Swiss reglamentation about Bidet shower

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We would assume, in examples, that the tap was not turned off, or was broken

(regulations like to cover all possibilities)

We're talking about a loss in pressure somewhere else. We don't know (and possibly don't care) where at the moment.

(regulations like to cover all possibilities)

But this could have a non-siphoning valve fitted ( for example, an outside tap which is also required to have one).

Then, my example might just work.

(regulations like to cover all possibilities)

P.S. I'm not a plumber.
About "I'm not a plumber" - me neither...

About "regulations like to cover all possibilities" True, probably better to play safe & ban connecting anything to the water supply, better yet ban the water supply.
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  #27  
Old 03.09.2010, 13:25
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

It is a bit long but cover most of the points. But still it is for the UK. I hope here it is not much difference. Neither answer my question but might the questions of somebody else.
Water Regulations Tutorial #8 – Showers Baths Bidets
Steve Hockley Grace - Technical Director - Arrow Valves

Updated 01/06/10

Bathrooms contain many types of water fitting which can be a source of contamination. The level of backflow protection required is dependant on the fitting and type of property. Modern plumbing systems supply the cold and hot water at mains pressure - or boosted for tall buildings. Such unvented systems have many advantages over gravity (vented) designs including – improved water quality, simpler pipe work, higher flow rates and reduced bacterial growth (less chlorination).

Many European bathroom fittings are designed for high pressure supplies and consequently the flow rate at typical gravity pressures (less than 1 bar) is often inadequate. With so many European fashion-styled fittings available, the designer is almost compelled to design new and refurbished properties with an unvented hot water system.

Older buildings in the UK often have cold mains (or boosted) supply and vented hot from a cold storage cistern. This creates a problem when using mixer taps, where the equal sized high pressure ports provide poor flow from the hot. Thermostatic Mixing Valves (TMVs) are designed for equal supply pressures and are likely to perform poorly with unbalanced hot and cold pressures. These are just some of the reasons for installing an unvented hot water system – there are many more.

When designing an unvented plumbing system, great care is required to provide the correct backflow protection. Schedule 2, paragraph 15 requires point of use protection –

“Subject to the following provisions of this paragraph, every water system shall contain an adequate device or devices for preventing backflow of fluid from any appliance, fitting or process from occurring”.

In addition to backflow prevention, public bathrooms should be designed to minimise Legionella risks and to provide hot water at a safe temperature.


Bidets

The contents of a bidet are Fluid Category 5. For hygiene reasons, bidets must be supplied with domestic water, meaning Fluid Category 1 (cold) or Fluid Category 2 (hot).

There are two types of bidet – over-rim and ascending spray. G15.11 deals with over-rim bidets –
“Bidets in domestic locations with taps or mixers located above the spillover level of the appliance, and not incorporating an ascending spray inlet below spillover level or spray and flexible hose, may be served from either a supply pipe or a distributing pipe provided that the water outlets discharge with a Type AUK2 air gap above the spillover level of the appliance”.

The words “domestic locations” would exclude health care premises. Here, the tap gap should be upgraded to type AUK3.

Most bidets found in hospitals and nursing homes tend to be the ascending spray type or feature a submergible hose. The Water Regulations Guide shows many illustrations for vented systems but none for unvented, other than R15.19.1, which concedes it is difficult to operate effectively.

Unvented (mains or boosted) systems require a type AB air gap feeding the bidet. The same cistern cannot be used for the general hot services.

The most practical arrangement is a cistern (break tank) with type AB air gap supplying cold water to a bidet and also supplying a dedicated electrical heater or heat exchanger (hot water cylinder). The heater should not store warm water at 43OC - due to risk of bacterial growth (e.g. Legionella and Cryptosporidium). The water should be stored at 60OC min. (we suggest 80OC max.) and a Thermostatic Mixing Valve (TMV) - meeting the requirements of TMV3 scheme – should be used at point of use – see TMV heading.

The Water Regulations Guide illustrates a number of ways to install a bidet from a cistern (i.e. vented) but there are no illustrations or R clauses for an unvented installation. G15.10 states –
B
Arrow Valves suggestion for an unvented hot and cold supply to a Fluid Category 5 fitting
(e.g. Bidet, Bath/Shower – Healthcare)

idets of this type (submergible outlets) may;
Be supplied with cold and/or hot water through Type AA, AB, or AD backflow prevention arrangements serving the bidet only; or, … “

In practice a type AA air gap must not be used for a cistern and type AD “Jump-Jet” are normally for small (e.g. 3 mm bore) OEM applications. The only practical option is therefore type AB air gap. To comply with all the requirements of the Water Regulations, Arrow Valves have designed a solution – see diagram above.

The diagram illustrates our standard compact Break Tank and Booster Set (model BTAB), which has a type AB air gap. An integral pressure vessel is used to control the pump, which must not be used for volume expansion due to temperature increase. A separate “Expansion Vessel” must be used which should be sized to accommodate the expansion (typically 4% of system volume).

To comply with Clause G17.3, a “flow through” Expansion Vessel is required. This design addresses the bacteria growth problem (e.g. Legionella) that breed in single pipe Expansion Vessels.

Temperature Measurement
Once installed, the outlet temperature must be set using a probe digital thermometer with a minimum refresh rate of 4 times a second.
· Cold - the cold temperature can be measured at the cold tap. This should be below 20OC (R17.1.3)
· Hot - insert probe into test point (15 mm kit versions). This should be above 55OC (G18.2)
· Mixed - the mixed temperature at the “hot” tap should be set slightly below the maximum permissible
temperature – use values in table below if no other specification is provided



For domestic situations - including hotels - ensure the bath shower hose has an approved HC diverter valve. If not, fit a Double Check Valve.
  • For health care premises, consider the consequences of not providing Fluid Category 5 protection.
  • All public hot water outlets - including schools, hotels etc – must be have a TMV (or equivalent) set to discharge at no more than 43OC.
  • Zone backflow designs must specifically be approved by the local water company. All proposed commercial installations must be notified – see tutorial 5.
Thank you for your interest
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  #28  
Old 03.09.2010, 13:54
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

Another angle, do you have a plumber? Have you talked to a plumber about installing one, they would probably the most knowledgable on this.
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  #29  
Old 03.09.2010, 13:56
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

And maybe this is the solution to my space problems in the bathroom, and to my problem finding info about regulation of this hand shower bidet!

http://www.dusch-wc24.de/cleanaday_travelbidet.html


hahahahaa!!
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  #30  
Old 03.09.2010, 14:00
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Another angle, do you have a plumber? Have you talked to a plumber about installing one, they would probably the most knowledgable on this.

yes, yes I did. He said here it is not allowed here in Switzerland .This is the reason I am searching for official info. I did bought everything like 6 month ago, because I was sure this was not going to be a problem. I found it crazy that they tell me I can not do it. So I disagree and I will try to find out if it is true or if this is just him being s.... uninformed.
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  #31  
Old 09.07.2017, 01:38
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

Hi carloncha, did you ever figure out if this is allowed or not, and did you find anyone who could install it? We're in the same boat as you were.
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  #32  
Old 09.07.2017, 09:53
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

There is a regulation in Kanton Zürich that only plumbing firms can install, repair or change drinking water installations, see here.

This implies that it is OK to do this work yourself to non drinking water installations?

There are enough DIY markets here that sell DIY shower installations often with "how to do it" instructions..
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  #33  
Old 12.07.2017, 17:30
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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yes, yes I did. He said here it is not allowed here in Switzerland .This is the reason I am searching for official info. I did bought everything like 6 month ago, because I was sure this was not going to be a problem. I found it crazy that they tell me I can not do it. So I disagree and I will try to find out if it is true or if this is just him being s.... uninformed.
Thanks for starting this thread. Did you get anywhere? was this allowed? Its allowed in US , not sure why they would have a problem in Swiss
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  #34  
Old 12.07.2017, 18:03
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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There is a regulation in Kanton Zürich that only plumbing firms can install, repair or change drinking water installations, see here.

This implies that it is OK to do this work yourself to non drinking water installations?

There are enough DIY markets here that sell DIY shower installations often with "how to do it" instructions..
:

How should i read that rule:

Sanitärfirmen benötigen Installations-Berechtigungen
Arbeiten an Haustechnikanlagen dürfen nur fachkundige Personen mit einer Installationsberechtigung des SVGW oder Betriebe mit einer in leitender Position vollzeitlich fest angestellten, installationsberechtigten Person vornehmen.


I would take this that if you do it yourself and work according the rulings there's no problem. If it's a paid job they should be certified.

I would be utterly amazed if it would not be legal for a houseowner to change an old tap for a new one by himself, (but this country has not yet stopped amazing me)
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  #35  
Old 12.07.2017, 18:43
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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:

How should i read that rule:

Sanitärfirmen benötigen Installations-Berechtigungen
Arbeiten an Haustechnikanlagen dürfen nur fachkundige Personen mit einer Installationsberechtigung des SVGW oder Betriebe mit einer in leitender Position vollzeitlich fest angestellten, installationsberechtigten Person vornehmen.


I would take this that if you do it yourself and work according the rulings there's no problem. If it's a paid job they should be certified.

I would be utterly amazed if it would not be legal for a houseowner to change an old tap for a new one by himself, (but this country has not yet stopped amazing me)
There is a big difference between replacing an item or installing a completely new/additional item into the system.

Now a lot is done here anyway
So I would simply try to find out WHY a private person is not supposed to do it him/herself and see if I'm able to avoid the problem they expect with the knowldge I have.
And if I had bought a bidet in Switzerland I would ask the seller first - these guys usually know the rules.
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  #36  
Old 12.07.2017, 18:47
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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:

How should i read that rule:

Sanitärfirmen benötigen Installations-Berechtigungen
Arbeiten an Haustechnikanlagen dürfen nur fachkundige Personen mit einer Installationsberechtigung des SVGW oder Betriebe mit einer in leitender Position vollzeitlich fest angestellten, installationsberechtigten Person vornehmen.


I would take this that if you do it yourself and work according the rulings there's no problem. If it's a paid job they should be certified.

I would be utterly amazed if it would not be legal for a houseowner to change an old tap for a new one by himself, (but this country has not yet stopped amazing me)
I assume you found that here which is all about drinking water; so far as I can understand it?
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  #37  
Old 12.07.2017, 18:51
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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:

I would be utterly amazed if it would not be legal for a houseowner to change an old tap for a new one by himself, (but this country has not yet stopped amazing me)
Changing a tap or a P trap is not the issue.

The fixed supply and drain connections, on the other hand....
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Old 12.07.2017, 19:52
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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I assume you found that here which is all about drinking water; so far as I can understand it?
A shower is part of the drinking water installation
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  #39  
Old 12.07.2017, 20:00
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Changing a tap or a P trap is not the issue.

The fixed supply and drain connections, on the other hand....
The rules make no separation on what can or cannot be done, they just state clearly Repair, Expanding, New and Changes.

Solely the fact that a profession is protected does not mean that someone is not allowed to do things on his own.
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  #40  
Old 12.07.2017, 20:16
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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A shower is part of the drinking water installation
An integral part if you plumb it in incorrectly.
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