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Old 13.07.2017, 13:48
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

In France, loads of expats will get UK builders to come over with white van and all the white goods, to install - and get away with it ...

until of course they want to sell and they can't get the necessary certificates as installations, be they plumbing or electrics- are not in accordance with French regs- and it all has to be ripped off and replaced before the 'certificat de conformité' can be obtained.
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  #62  
Old 13.07.2017, 13:49
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Right, so you feel that the Swiss government has some requirement to explain itself to you personally?

What do you think the reaction would be if you were to write to the Swedish, Dutch, and Belgian authorities and ask them to justify the fact that changing plumbing installations isn't limited to qualified professionals? Your answer would be about the same as asking the inverse question here: "That is how things are here."

From a purely practical standpoint so few Swiss people actually do any DIY renovations that it's only really we foreigners who notice that it's odd that you can buy the materials, but cannot install them.
I disagree. If Edwin would pose the question to the authorities, I'm 99% sure he would get a decent, satisfying answer. TIS.

And yes we do install the things we can buy here You actually think we got a bunch of stupid people running stores selling stuff nobody buys and uses?
Which is why I was amused, when Edwil expressed the notion that all Swiss are so obedient. We are of course - only we're all pros
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  #63  
Old 13.07.2017, 13:55
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Edwin: Do you regard electrical installations as potentially dangerous, and therefore needing regulation and inspection? Most people do.

Yet you can purchase pretty much everything you need to electrocute yourself in any Baucenter.

Think about it from a global perspective: Which would you say causes more deaths per year worldwide: unsafe electrical installations, or unsafe plumbing? My guess would be unsafe plumbing, even if we exclude the third world.
My profession and expertise is very simplified maintaining, building, repairing industrial installations as for everything on the steering, controlling and electrical part of it, running from 1V to 3KV, I've been teamleader on a technical team on a large industrial facility and i've had my own electrical installation company. This does not give me all knowledge, nor do i want to claim i posses all knowledge, but it does give me the experience and knowledge to claim that i know what i am talking about.

Yes i've seen accidents happen with electricity, yes i had a co-worker who got his face burned, yes i've seen installations burn up, and i've even repaired a remarkable case where a "noob" actually managed to put 230V on their kids bedframe which lasted for days where the finally called me to tell that the bed gives a wierd itch.... But electricity is only responsible for a relative low amount of deaths, (even if you take in account the fires it causes.) Due to the amazingly good protection most installations have.

Water is much more deadly, drinking the first glass without rinsing the pipes by letting it flow some time first after two weeks of holiday already could kill you, and relatively close to my home in Holland in '99 there was a single case with 32 people dead and 206 severely ill people needed to be taken into hospital, due to a stack of only 2 things done by people who thought "Oh this is good enough for the water"

I am all in favour of high regulations, and it gives me shivers to see what people can do to their own installations, and people do die because a previous home owner thought 20 years ago "Why would i disconnect that silly 50 cm of dead end piping, i just leave it in the wall" So yes i would love to see more checks, i would love to see more rulings as for who's allowed to do what, and forced regularly checks on installations and better education for the people.

But this does not take away that in many (most) countries there's no such thing as forced checks, forced certification, good education on these things. And i still am not convinced that inhere it is forbidden for me to replace a watertap 50cm to the left including a new piece of piping, wether this is due to me reading something wrong, not understanding a rule properly or me failing to find a proper rule, or the lack of such rule is not clear to me yet.

There's two sides to this discussion:

1. Is it wise to let everybody work on those installations regardless of knowledge. That we can all agree on: NO it isn't
2. Is it legal for a homeowner to make changes on installations while still complying to all the rules for such installation.: Still open to me.
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  #64  
Old 13.07.2017, 14:00
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Right, so you feel that the Swiss government has some requirement to explain itself to you personally?
No, and nowhere did i say so.
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  #65  
Old 13.07.2017, 14:04
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Ha! Cute. We're obviously good at keeping up appearances.
We're all masters in obeying the 11th commandment
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  #66  
Old 13.07.2017, 14:06
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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I disagree. If Edwin would pose the question to the authorities, I'm 99% sure he would get a decent, satisfying answer. TIS.

And yes we do install the things we can buy here You actually think we got a bunch of stupid people running stores selling stuff nobody buys and uses?
Which is why I was amused, when Edwil expressed the notion that all Swiss are so obedient. We are of course - only we're all pros
Edwin's argument seems to be that since he can do as he pleases elsewhere, then that should also be the case here.

Actually, it's only in the last 20 years or so that you've been able to get much more than basic switches and outlets from the usual Coop/Migros Do-it places. Trade suppliers wouldn't sell stuff like breakers or fuse rings to the public when I first arrived.

@Tom: When you first arrived (roughly when I did) the market was almost exclusively rental. Remember how odd it seemed that you couldn't easily find stuff to fix your car, upgrade a circuit, or add a garden hose connection to your home? The rest of Switzerland may have been different, but in Zurich it took a while before I managed to find the specialist shops (Pusterla etc).
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  #67  
Old 13.07.2017, 14:06
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Which is why I was amused, when Edwil expressed the notion that all Swiss are so obedient.
Only i never expressed such, nor do i feel that way. I only expressed that: Given how law obedient most Swiss people are

I would highly appreciate it if we do not go the personal way, or change things people said.
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Old 13.07.2017, 14:12
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Edwin's argument seems to be that since he can do as he pleases elsewhere, then that should also be the case here.
No, nor did i state this.

I state clearly within my postings that i fail to see how the inhere offered rulings forbid a homeowner to alter his own installation (all given within reasonable limits off course) since i did not read a ruling yet that i interpret as a ruling that forbids such.

We can all talk about what Edwin feels and says, we can all lay words in his mouth, or we can try to explain with facts the poor not understanding guy he is what the current actual state of the ruling is. Or tell him how he misreads things.
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  #69  
Old 13.07.2017, 14:18
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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Only i never expressed such, nor do i feel that way. I only expressed that: Given how law obedient most Swiss people are

I would highly appreciate it if we do not go the personal way, or change things people said.
.... is as stereotype as me - accidentally - changing one word.

However, I let you be touchy-feely and just patiently wait for the answer to the totally factual, logical question.
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Old 13.07.2017, 14:24
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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@Tom: When you first arrived (roughly when I did) the market was almost exclusively rental. Remember how odd it seemed that you couldn't easily find stuff to fix your car, upgrade a circuit, or add a garden hose connection to your home? The rest of Switzerland may have been different, but in Zurich it took a while before I managed to find the specialist shops (Pusterla etc).
I could always order it through work.

Tom
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Old 13.07.2017, 14:35
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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My profession and expertise is very simplified maintaining, building, repairing industrial installations as for everything on the steering, controlling and electrical part of it, running from 1V to 3KV, I've been teamleader on a technical team on a large industrial facility and i've had my own electrical installation company. This does not give me all knowledge, nor do i want to claim i posses all knowledge, but it does give me the experience and knowledge to claim that i know what i am talking about.

Yes i've seen accidents happen with electricity, yes i had a co-worker who got his face burned, yes i've seen installations burn up, and i've even repaired a remarkable case where a "noob" actually managed to put 230V on their kids bedframe which lasted for days where the finally called me to tell that the bed gives a wierd itch.... But electricity is only responsible for a relative low amount of deaths, (even if you take in account the fires it causes.) Due to the amazingly good protection most installations have.

Water is much more deadly, drinking the first glass without rinsing the pipes by letting it flow some time first after two weeks of holiday already could kill you, and relatively close to my home in Holland in '99 there was a single case with 32 people dead and 206 severely ill people needed to be taken into hospital, due to a stack of only 2 things done by people who thought "Oh this is good enough for the water"

I am all in favour of high regulations, and it gives me shivers to see what people can do to their own installations, and people do die because a previous home owner thought 20 years ago "Why would i disconnect that silly 50 cm of dead end piping, i just leave it in the wall" So yes i would love to see more checks, i would love to see more rulings as for who's allowed to do what, and forced regularly checks on installations and better education for the people.

But this does not take away that in many (most) countries there's no such thing as forced checks, forced certification, good education on these things. And i still am not convinced that inhere it is forbidden for me to replace a watertap 50cm to the left including a new piece of piping, wether this is due to me reading something wrong, not understanding a rule properly or me failing to find a proper rule, or the lack of such rule is not clear to me yet.

There's two sides to this discussion:

1. Is it wise to let everybody work on those installations regardless of knowledge. That we can all agree on: NO it isn't
2. Is it legal for a homeowner to make changes on installations while still complying to all the rules for such installation.: Still open to me.
See Marton's post here. His link includes:

Quote:
Neuerstellungen, Änderungen, Erweiterungen und Reparaturen an Trinkwasserinstallationen dürfen nur von Sanitär-Installationsfirmen ausgeführt werden, die über eine Installationsberechtigung verfügen.
It's pretty clear. No it is not legal.

They're probably not going to throw you in the slammer for changing the cartridge in your kitchen faucet.

And if you do the job properly then you won't even get noticed. But if you do a renovation which includes changes to the water, then the EWZ Sanitärinspektor will visit at the beginning of the job and he will expect to see a qualified Contractor and have the installation explained to him.

Oddly, the EWZ doesn't come back when everything is finished to inspect the water, but they do for the electrical, although they don't expect to meet an electrical contractor at the commencement of work.

I have a (now lapsed) electrician's ticket, so I did all my own work while renovating a house here 25 years ago, but I spoke with a few 'lekkies at work about code etc. Once I'd replaced all the branch circuits in the house we had a contractor come in and replace the distribution panel and organize the inspection. The contractor was a bit surprised that everything was done correctly, but it was, and we passed the inspection with flying colours.
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  #72  
Old 13.07.2017, 14:38
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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@Tom: When you first arrived (roughly when I did) the market was almost exclusively rental. Remember how odd it seemed that you couldn't easily find stuff to fix your car, upgrade a circuit, or add a garden hose connection to your home? The rest of Switzerland may have been different, but in Zurich it took a while before I managed to find the specialist shops (Pusterla etc).
Unlikely.

Dad used to say that when he and Mom bought the house in 1963 (an old one which required a lot of work) many wouldn't sell to private customers. Until Migros opened its DIY branches different and unfavorable pricing for private customers were common. Assuming you got sold to, that is.
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  #73  
Old 13.07.2017, 20:57
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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See Marton's post here. His link includes:

It's pretty clear. No it is not legal.

They're probably not going to throw you in the slammer for changing the cartridge in your kitchen faucet.

And if you do the job properly then you won't even get noticed. But if you do a renovation which includes changes to the water, then the EWZ Sanitärinspektor will visit at the beginning of the job and he will expect to see a qualified Contractor and have the installation explained to him.

Oddly, the EWZ doesn't come back when everything is finished to inspect the water, but they do for the electrical, although they don't expect to meet an electrical contractor at the commencement of work.

I have a (now lapsed) electrician's ticket, so I did all my own work while renovating a house here 25 years ago, but I spoke with a few 'lekkies at work about code etc. Once I'd replaced all the branch circuits in the house we had a contractor come in and replace the distribution panel and organize the inspection. The contractor was a bit surprised that everything was done correctly, but it was, and we passed the inspection with flying colours.
The rules for DIY electrical work are better explained than for water here!
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Old 17.07.2017, 21:15
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

I disagree. If Edwin would pose the question to the authorities, I'm 99% sure he would get a decent, satisfying answer. TIS.



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  #75  
Old 17.07.2017, 22:18
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Re: Swiss regulations concerning Bidet shower installation

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I disagree. If Edwin would pose the question to the authorities, I'm 99% sure he would get a decent, satisfying answer. TIS.



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That's what Curley said.
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