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  #141  
Old 09.08.2011, 10:16
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

Which is exactly why the government want to put limits to this method- as they fear it will leave many without adequate pensions in the future.
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  #142  
Old 09.08.2011, 10:32
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Which is exactly why the government want to put limits to this method- as they fear it will leave many without adequate pensions in the future.
That's all very true. In our case, however, we would have have been much worse off if we had not been able to buy a house - renting one with the required number of rooms, within striking distance of work (Basel) would have been criplingly expensive. Nevermind the limited availability of houses with 6+ rooms.

Roughly:
6,000 CHF rent/month = 72,000 CHF a year
~3,500 CHF interest/Q + 9,000 CHF = 23,000 CHF a year (and I've used higher rates)

This, of course, doesn't take into account tax effects, eigenwert (or however it is spelled), NK, insurances, opportunity costs/losses. In the case of the latter, I'd rather spend on a house than speculate on the markets right now tbh.

If you can get a mortgage & house it is a no-brainer.
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  #143  
Old 09.08.2011, 11:33
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

It's always better to pledge the money if you can rather than actually withdraw it. Better for tax purposes too.
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  #144  
Old 27.09.2011, 06:46
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

Thanks to all who contributed with their experiences. I have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you who have been through the process might know the answer to. we've found a house that we like. this is a new place that is not yet 100% ready but should be in next couple of months. It is in a group of 16-20 twin houses and we've identified 1 that has the right m2 and pieces that we are after.

so onto to the questions

1. we are a bit short of the 20% (+5% for notary fees). We are thinking of pledging our pensions but do you think the bank that has financed the constructor would give a better deal i.e. better interest rate and perhaps even require less than the 20%? I ask as I think they would be interested in giving a strong assessment of the property value as they might've put up the money to build these houses in the first place.

2. Even though the houses are ready in a couple of months, we would like to buy but for personal reasons keep living in Lausanne for an additional year. As these opportunities do not come along so often, we want to jump on the opportunity... but at the same time we cannot afford a mortgage and a rent. So, could we rent out the place for a year? The idea is not really to make a profit but more to cover the mortgage and maintenance costs. would there be any tax implications here?

I know it is strange to have someone living in your brand new house, but rent laws are so strict in CH that we think the house would still be in "new" condition 1 year from now.

Any thoughts?

thanks
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  #145  
Old 27.09.2011, 07:21
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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1. we are a bit short of the 20% (+5% for notary fees).
5% notary fees...?? Are you sure about that figure or has notary fees gone through the roof the last few years? I can't remember paying any more than 6 or 7 hundred when I bought my place (some 8 years ago).
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  #146  
Old 27.09.2011, 08:33
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Thanks to all who contributed with their experiences. I have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you who have been through the process might know the answer to. we've found a house that we like. this is a new place that is not yet 100% ready but should be in next couple of months. It is in a group of 16-20 twin houses and we've identified 1 that has the right m2 and pieces that we are after.

so onto to the questions

1. we are a bit short of the 20% (+5% for notary fees). We are thinking of pledging our pensions but do you think the bank that has financed the constructor would give a better deal i.e. better interest rate and perhaps even require less than the 20%? I ask as I think they would be interested in giving a strong assessment of the property value as they might've put up the money to build these houses in the first place.

2. Even though the houses are ready in a couple of months, we would like to buy but for personal reasons keep living in Lausanne for an additional year. As these opportunities do not come along so often, we want to jump on the opportunity... but at the same time we cannot afford a mortgage and a rent. So, could we rent out the place for a year? The idea is not really to make a profit but more to cover the mortgage and maintenance costs. would there be any tax implications here?

I know it is strange to have someone living in your brand new house, but rent laws are so strict in CH that we think the house would still be in "new" condition 1 year from now.

Any thoughts?

thanks
You certainly can't pledge your pension and then not live there without breaking the rules. Your pension can only be pledged for your own residence. In fact if you do live there then have to move out and rent it, you are supposed to buy out the pledge, although I don't know if/how this is enforced. To sublet it you would also need approval from the mortgage company I believe, who would then probably raise issue with the pledge.
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  #147  
Old 27.09.2011, 08:37
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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5% notary fees...?? Are you sure about that figure or has notary fees gone through the roof the last few years? I can't remember paying any more than 6 or 7 hundred when I bought my place (some 8 years ago).
Agree with that comment. Check the 5% doesn't have another small 0 (e.g. 5 o/oo) - that means 0.5%. In Zurich the notary fee is currently 1 o/oo ie 0.1% I believe. The same applies to the ground registry fee. Maybe you are including in your 5% a land transfer tax, which I know applies in some cantons (but not Zurich).
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  #148  
Old 27.09.2011, 09:33
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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5% notary fees...?? Are you sure about that figure or has notary fees gone through the roof the last few years? I can't remember paying any more than 6 or 7 hundred when I bought my place (some 8 years ago).
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Agree with that comment. Check the 5% doesn't have another small 0 (e.g. 5 o/oo) - that means 0.5%. In Zurich the notary fee is currently 1 o/oo ie 0.1% I believe. The same applies to the ground registry fee. Maybe you are including in your 5% a land transfer tax, which I know applies in some cantons (but not Zurich).
Kanton Zürich has public Notaries so fees are reasonable and preset, other (but not all) Kantons have semiprivate Notaties so fees can be all over the place.
Can anyone confirm for me that you do not have to use the Notary where you are buying the property, so it would then be possible to "shop around" for a cheaper Notary? I have heard some people buying in France or Germany use Swiss Notaries for this very reason. I will research some more and repost.
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  #149  
Old 27.09.2011, 11:43
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Kanton Zürich has public Notaries so fees are reasonable and preset, other (but not all) Kantons have semiprivate Notaties so fees can be all over the place.
Can anyone confirm for me that you do not have to use the Notary where you are buying the property, so it would then be possible to "shop around" for a cheaper Notary? I have heard some people buying in France or Germany use Swiss Notaries for this very reason. I will research some more and repost.

No, the fees cannot be all over the place. All public notary fees are fixed by law even for "semi-private" public notaries
.
And yes, you have to use a notary of the Canton in which you are buying property.
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  #150  
Old 27.09.2011, 15:27
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Agree with that comment. Check the 5% doesn't have another small 0 (e.g. 5 o/oo) - that means 0.5%. In Zurich the notary fee is currently 1 o/oo ie 0.1% I believe. The same applies to the ground registry fee. Maybe you are including in your 5% a land transfer tax, which I know applies in some cantons (but not Zurich).
You are right I confused the Notary fees with the purchase costs and taxes involved. In Vaud its roughly 2.5% for the Canton, 1.5% for Commune and 1% for other additional costs which include Notary fees.
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  #151  
Old 27.09.2011, 15:37
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Thanks to all who contributed with their experiences. I have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you who have been through the process might know the answer to. we've found a house that we like. this is a new place that is not yet 100% ready but should be in next couple of months. It is in a group of 16-20 twin houses and we've identified 1 that has the right m2 and pieces that we are after.

so onto to the questions

1. we are a bit short of the 20% (+5% for notary fees). We are thinking of pledging our pensions but do you think the bank that has financed the constructor would give a better deal i.e. better interest rate and perhaps even require less than the 20%? I ask as I think they would be interested in giving a strong assessment of the property value as they might've put up the money to build these houses in the first place.

2. Even though the houses are ready in a couple of months, we would like to buy but for personal reasons keep living in Lausanne for an additional year. As these opportunities do not come along so often, we want to jump on the opportunity... but at the same time we cannot afford a mortgage and a rent. So, could we rent out the place for a year? The idea is not really to make a profit but more to cover the mortgage and maintenance costs. would there be any tax implications here?

I know it is strange to have someone living in your brand new house, but rent laws are so strict in CH that we think the house would still be in "new" condition 1 year from now.

Any thoughts?

thanks

sorry to be blunt, but you cannot afford this house, you don't have the deposit and you cannot afford the rent and mortgage, as others have said you cannot rent it out if your have pledged, and even if you could you would need the banks approval, and that's even if you could find someone willing to rent for only a year.
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Old 27.09.2011, 15:55
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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, and that's even if you could find someone willing to rent for only a year.
Find an foreigner & ask them to sign a 2 year minimium agreement, they will probably bo leaving in 9 months.
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  #153  
Old 27.09.2011, 16:00
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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sorry to be blunt, but you cannot afford this house, you don't have the deposit and you cannot afford the rent and mortgage, as others have said you cannot rent it out if your have pledged, and even if you could you would need the banks approval, and that's even if you could find someone willing to rent for only a year.
Allow me to be blunt as well - you don't know my financials so you don't know if I can afford it or not. I am simply exploring options and trying to feed on past experience from someone who has has been through the process and might've run into a similar situation. Let me explain my rationale

You are right in the sense we are a bit short of the ~25%. The reason is we do not want to give up any assets we currently have i.e. property outside CH, stock options, etc. If I were to do this I would easily get the ~25% .... but alas now is not the best time time to sell. This is the reason I am exploring options to try to slightly reduce the ~25%. I think everyone who bought at least tried to find a way to reduce the down payment. Just as trying to negotiate a selling price, negotiating a down payment seems only logical. I am not saying I will be successful but I can at least try.

Regarding paying rent and mortgage on 2 place, I doubt there are many people who can afford to sustain 2 properties in CH - so again exploring options. Correction: perhaps there are many people who can afford 2 places but they don't seem to be on this forum given all the salary questions and replies
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  #154  
Old 27.09.2011, 16:11
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Allow me to be blunt as well - you don't know my financials so you don't know if I can afford it or not. I am simply exploring options and trying to feed on past experience from someone who has has been through the process and might've run into a similar situation. Let me explain my rationale

You are right in the sense we are a bit short of the ~25%. The reason is we do not want to give up any assets we currently have i.e. property outside CH, stock options, etc. If I were to do this I would easily get the ~25% .... but alas now is not the best time time to sell. This is the reason I am exploring options to try to slightly reduce the ~25%. I think everyone who bought at least tried to find a way to reduce the down payment. Just as trying to negotiate a selling price, negotiating a down payment seems only logical. I am not saying I will be successful but I can at least try.
Don't forget to factor in the extra 5% or so to the total cost for all those extras that you feel you don't want to skip when you're investing so much into a property.

Most people overspend on the kitchen for example.

Some new builds are very generous regarding what is included. Some are quite mean.
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  #155  
Old 27.09.2011, 16:16
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Don't forget to factor in the extra 5% or so to the total cost for all those extras that you feel you don't want to skip when you're investing so much into a property.

Most people overspend on the kitchen for example.

Some new builds are very generous regarding what is included. Some are quite mean.
This is a good point. The "problem" is the property is ready in a few months so there isn't really a lot we can ask for... however, the agent did mention something out of the blue which surprised me since I had not mentioned anything related to prices (yet). She told me there seller is open to negotiating and reducing the price by 20-30K, or alternatively adding some "extras" free of charge such as a hedge, or fence, or extra tiles in the garden, etc.

On a side note, speaking to a colleague of mine, who is going through the same process with a different property and is speaking to banks, apparently UBS is being very aggressive with their proposals and are offering very competitive mortgages. According to my friend, he believe it is related to the recent crisis UBS is going through with the rogue trader
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  #156  
Old 27.09.2011, 16:21
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

If you buy to live in you can:
Pledge Pension
Put down only(?) 20%

If you buy to rent out or as a second home they usually allow:
No pledging of pension
Deposit of 30%

This is based on our experience. We were able to negotiate the 30% down to 20% because:
We had other assets/savings
We had an accelerated repayment schedule

Getting below 20% will be very tough. The banks have long memories of the 80s where they lent at 90% (some at 95%) and got burned. I wouldn't put it past the banks to lend you 85% - then after 12 months revalue the property and make a margin call.

Furthermore, new builds in Switzerland are usually worth less after 12 months - because they are a year closer to needing a new floor/kitchen/bathroom etc.

The CS online calculator is very good at demonstating that the full cost of house ownership has very little to do with the interest you pay!
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Old 27.09.2011, 16:26
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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If you buy to live in you can:
Pledge Pension
Put down only(?) 20%

If you buy to rent out or as a second home they usually allow:
No pledging of pension
Deposit of 30%

This is based on our experience. We were able to negotiate the 30% down to 20% because:
We had other assets/savings
We had an accelerated repayment schedule

Getting below 20% will be very tough. The banks have long memories of the 80s where they lent at 90% (some at 95%) and got burned. I wouldn't put it past the banks to lend you 85% - then after 12 months revalue the property and make a margin call.

Furthermore, new builds in Switzerland are usually worth less after 12 months - because they are a year closer to needing a new floor/kitchen/bathroom etc.

The CS online calculator is very good at demonstating that the full cost of house ownership has very little to do with the interest you pay!
what happens if you live in your place then later decide to rent it out? would they ask for an extra 10%? how would they know?
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Old 27.09.2011, 16:27
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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This is a good point. The "problem" is the property is ready in a few months so there isn't really a lot we can ask for... however, the agent did mention something out of the blue which surprised me since I had not mentioned anything related to prices (yet). She told me there seller is open to negotiating and reducing the price by 20-30K, or alternatively adding some "extras" free of charge such as a hedge, or fence, or extra tiles in the garden, etc.
Ok, you need to ask yourself what is wrong with the house. Unless it's in a remote location.
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Old 27.09.2011, 16:27
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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Allow me to be blunt as well - you don't know my financials so you don't know if I can afford it or not. I am simply exploring options and trying to feed on past experience from someone who has has been through the process and might've run into a similar situation. Let me explain my rationale

You are right in the sense we are a bit short of the ~25%. The reason is we do not want to give up any assets we currently have i.e. property outside CH, stock options, etc. If I were to do this I would easily get the ~25% .... but alas now is not the best time time to sell. This is the reason I am exploring options to try to slightly reduce the ~25%. I think everyone who bought at least tried to find a way to reduce the down payment. Just as trying to negotiate a selling price, negotiating a down payment seems only logical. I am not saying I will be successful but I can at least try.

Regarding paying rent and mortgage on 2 place, I doubt there are many people who can afford to sustain 2 properties in CH - so again exploring options. Correction: perhaps there are many people who can afford 2 places but they don't seem to be on this forum given all the salary questions and replies
Here's the thing, if you want the best answer you have to give all the facts. If you have assets outside the country, the bank may in fact agree to allow a lower down payment or you can "pledge" these assets without cashing them in. The only way to know is to talk to the bank.

Pledging you pension fund is ONLY allowed to buy your primary residence. You'll have to see what the bank/pension fund says about your plan to rent it out the first year. They may not let you pledge it. But perhaps your outside assets will be enough.

We have an agreement with the bank that we can rent out our place but that is only because we are out of the country and we did live in it before we left.

Good luck.
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Old 27.09.2011, 16:53
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Re: The "Buying a house in Switzerland" thread

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what happens if you live in your place then later decide to rent it out? would they ask for an extra 10%? how would they know?
If you decide to rent out your house they can ask you to repay the pension fund and then some (Ken wrote, up to 30% or more). IIRC, it's a law that you can't use your pension fund, not a bank policy. It's the pension fund that would want the money back and you'll be short on your downpayment to the bank. They know because you change your address when you move.
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