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Old 03.11.2010, 16:36
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Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

I paid Fr. 6 pro m2 as' reinigungpausal' for my apartment.

On my 'Mietvertrag' written:

'Der Mieter hat dir Mietraumer in besenreinem Zustand zuruckzugeben. Der Vermieter ubernimmt die grundliche Reinigung, wofur der Mieter eine Entschadigung von pauschal Fr. 6 pro m2 Mietflache bezahlt (Balkone, Keller und Estrichraume zu 1/4 anrechenbar)

However, when I quitted my apartment they sent me a new letter about 'Richtlinien fur die Wohnungsruckgabe' written:



'Die Kuchenkombination und die Sanitarraume inkl apparate sind in ordentlich gereinigtem Zustand und die ubrigen Mietraume (inkl. Balkone, Keller- und Estrichabteile sowie Fahrzeugplatze usw.) sind in normal gereinigtem sog. besenreinem Zustand zuruckzugeben. Die Hausverwaltung ubernimmt die grundliche Reinigung der ubrigen Mietraume. Hierfur bezahlen Sie an die Hausverwaltung die im Mietvertrag vereinbarte Reinigungspauschale, vorbehaltlich anderslautender Vereinbarungen.'

So based on their letter I need to look for cleaning company to clean the Kitchen, WC and bathroom, I felt it is not so correct since it seems different from what is written on the Contract.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/advices!

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Old 12.11.2010, 00:06
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

Can you let me know which company did you use so we can avoid it, please? Thanks in advance.
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Old 12.11.2010, 00:14
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

Please post in English on englishforum.ch, or at least provide a translation if you post original text in another language.

Then, more people will be able to help you with your query.
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Old 12.11.2010, 00:27
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

you may want to read it again. Not sure you have translated it correctly as it is only telling you what the duties are. No where does it say that you have not left it in the condition required. Did you have someone come and look through the place to sign off on it?
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Old 12.11.2010, 16:09
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

My German is not good enough to translate in a proper way, that's why I did type in the original text.

What I understand is on the orginal contract, since i paid 6CHf /m2 for the cleaning, I just need a very basic cleaning (besenreinem Zustand )of the apartment, the company will take care of the the whole cleaning.

While on the letter which indicates the requirments for handing over the apartment, it clearly says in I need do a good deep cleaning(ordentlich gereinigtem Zustand ) for the Kitchen and WC, which means I will hire a professional cleaner to do it.


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Please post in English on englishforum.ch, or at least provide a translation if you post original text in another language.

Then, more people will be able to help you with your query.
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Old 12.11.2010, 16:12
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

No, I havent give back the apartment yet. It will be next month.

I am still wondering should I just pay a professional cleaner for the kitchen and WC( in addition to the 6CHF/ m2 I have already paid to the agent) or try to fight a bit for my rights.

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you may want to read it again. Not sure you have translated it correctly as it is only telling you what the duties are. No where does it say that you have not left it in the condition required. Did you have someone come and look through the place to sign off on it?
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Old 12.11.2010, 16:13
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

The company is in Basel. I see you live in Zurich. If you still want to know the name I will send a PM.

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Can you let me know which company did you use so we can avoid it, please? Thanks in advance.
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Old 12.11.2010, 16:20
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

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My German is not good enough to translate in a proper way, that's why I did type in the original text.
Then please at least do a google translation, and mark it as such. While there are plenty of people here that can read German there are a lot more that can't, and a google (or other) automated translation is better than nothing.
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Old 12.11.2010, 16:35
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

I believe you are mixing things up a bit.

First you mention the service you pay 6 CHF/m2 for and afterwards you jumps to the requirements from your landlord.

I don't see the problem. You have received an offer for cleaning (and you have to shovel out the worst sh!t yourself first) and then you have your landlord stating that special attention must be taken when cleaning the kitchen, bath room and what not.

Am I wrong...?
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Old 12.11.2010, 17:18
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

First you mention the service you pay 6 CHF/m2 for and afterwards you jumps to the requirements from your landlord.
-----
The 6CHF/m2 are paid to the landlord. They will do the whole cleaning according to the contract.

Your landlord stating that special attention must be taken when cleaning the kitchen, bath room and what not.
-----
They are asking for a deep cleaning for the kitchen, bath room now, which I supposed they should do it.
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Old 12.11.2010, 17:46
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

You are right - the contract you signed states that you have to give back the flat "besenrein" but the letter you have received recently states that they expect you to "properly clean" kitchen and bathroom.

I would get back to the agency and ask them straight out- tell them your contract states besenrein only.

Either they will drop the request or they should not clean these rooms/areas hence reducing the final bill (ie subtracting the m2 of these rooms).

Do check what "besenrein" means though - a quick wipe won't be enough.
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Old 12.11.2010, 18:11
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

Many thanks Dani_SF, yes, the situation is exactly like you said.

I did contact the agency, and they insisted that the kictchen and Batchroom should be properly cleaned. They even gave me a phone number for a cleaning company.

I asked how about I just briefly clean the kictchen and go. He said if I do so, they will send me additional cleaning bill, which I guess will be much higher than I hire someone now.

I check the MV website for 'besenrein'

Besenrein ist nirgens definiert. Gemäss Praxis ist besenrein wörtlich zu nehmen, d.h mit dem Besen wischen. Dies gilt für einen stets gut unterhaltenen Haushalt, in dem z.B. alljährlich Frühjahrsputz gehalten wird. Grobe und klebrige Schmutzrückstände z.B. in Einbauschränken, Kühlschrank und Backofen sind zu entfernen.

after google translation:

Besenrein is nowhere defined. According to practice is to take literally swept clean, ie wipe with a broom. This is an always well-maintained home, in the example annual spring cleaning is maintained. Gross and sticky dirt e.g. in cupboards, refrigerator and oven are removed.
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Old 12.11.2010, 18:23
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

Just another example of shitty agencies, I do hate them with a passion.

I couldn't find an English definition of besenrein but this is a leaflet the Mieterverband has issued: http://www.mieterverband.ch/fileadmi...gsarbeiten.pdf

Good luck with the move!
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Old 12.11.2010, 18:38
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

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So based on their letter I need to look for cleaning company to clean the Kitchen, WC and bathroom, I felt it is not so correct since it seems different from what is written on the Contract.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/advices!


"Ordentlich gereinigten Zustand" does not mean that you are required to engage in a "cleaning company", a bit of elbow grease, a brillo pad and a squeegee and you are on your way.

I suspect that the landlord has realized he is getting a bad deal with the CHF 6 Pauschale or has had bad experiences with renters leaving behind kitchen, wc and bathroom in a terrible state. In any event if has written a Pauschale into the rent agreement then he has to live with it, even if his costs are higher.

In my opinion it does not make sense for the renter to have to bring in a cleaning company for kitchen, wc and bathroom and for the landlord to bring in a different one for the rest of the apartment.

I for my part would tell the landlord that I'll give back the apartment in a decent condition, but refuse to pay anything above the contractually agreed Pauschale. But then again I have a competitive nature
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Old 12.11.2010, 18:46
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

Your Contract (Mietvertrag) is agreed and binding.
A letter they send you at the end which contradicts this is neither agreed nor binding.

The letter is probably a standard one and not tailored to each appartment's contract.

Send them a short registered letter (eingeschrieben) saying that their recent letter is wrong and your cleaning obligation is what your contract says, i.e. (quote), and nothing more.
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Old 12.11.2010, 19:00
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

In my opinion it does not make sense for the renter to have to bring in a cleaning company for kitchen, wc and bathroom and for the landlord to bring in a different one for the rest of the apartment.
---

You are absolutely right. If I hire a cleaning company to do the whole apartment it is 1100-1200CHF. While now I have to pay 900CHF for the agency and need another 400-500CHF for the kitchen and WC.

I had even asked what about I am not paying the pauschal and I will take care of the whole cleaning. He said no.

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Old 12.11.2010, 19:18
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

Alternative suggestion:

Thank the landlord and say you would of course be delighted to have the wc, kitchen, etc. cleaned and you would deduct invoice from the Pauschale . See how he likes that suggestion.

But seriously, Gwendolyn is right: Short registered letter quoting the Mietvertrag.
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Old 12.11.2010, 19:23
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

I have a cleaning company in Basel and we do a lot of final cleans. Some agencies will ask for only the kitchen and bathrooms to be cleaned thoroughly and they then clean the rest of the apartment including windows and blinds. I have often given a quote for the kitchens and bathrooms and then another quote for the full clean and my quotes fall below those offered by the agency, ie 900 for the agency to clean and 400 for the kitchens and bathrooms. Total 1300, I would come in at 1000 ( with guarantee) CHF. Have you asked the agency if you can use a cleaning company to complete the full clean ??
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Old 12.11.2010, 21:47
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

You don't need to hire a professional cleaning company if you are prepared to be thorough and put a little elbow grease into it. We just handed over our apartment without a professional cleaner and we made sure that we did things very thoroughly, of course it wasn't perfect but close. The areas below is what our landlord seemed to zoom in on with a white glove during the inspection;
  • Refrigerator washed it inside out - all pieces (drawers & shelves)taken out put through the dishwasher or washed by hand.
  • Oven properly cleaned including the oven trays& racks
  • Stove Hood - washed the filters and light cover in the dishwasher, make sure you clean the inside of the hood where grease can build up.
  • Sink drains and spouts - it's not enough to just clean the sink so it is sparkling, according to our previous landlord the drain needs to be thoroughly cleaned and decalcified too.
  • All sink faucet heads in both the bathroom and kitchen need to be removed and decalcified.
  • Cleaned the light covers in the bathroom and kitchen and replaced any burnt out bulbs.
  • All windows cleaned inside out
  • All Window blinds cleaned, we washed them all twice, once with with mild soapy water, then just with plain water.
  • Washing Machine & Dryer. These also need to be looked after and this is what we missed. The heat exchanger in the dryer needs to be removed washed and the internal area where it resides also needs a good wipe out, of course the filter needs to be cleaned including the inside, a good vacuum should be able to get out what you can't by hand. Of course we cleaned it on the spot and he was satisfied.
Although he balked at the idea of completing the formal handover protocol for us we insisted so we have it all in writing that the cleaning was to his satisfaction. The only thing he put down was the cost of a 150 CHF spring for the dishwasher door. I argued with him that that should be his responsibility as it is "normal wear and tear" not excessive on a a 16 year old dishwasher but he refused to budge on the issue.

Hope this helps
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Old 13.11.2010, 14:15
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Re: Cleaning issue when giving back apartment, Many Thanks!

I agree that your contract states that you do not have to do the deep cleaning. Don't leave a complete mess, but don't polish everything either.

On mieterverband.ch in the faq I found this:

Stimmt es, dass in der Nordwestschweiz andere Regeln über das Putzen beim Auszug aus einer Wohnung gelten?

Antwort: Ja, in der Nordwestschweiz müssen Mieterinnen und Mieter vor der Wohnungsabgabe in der Regel nur besenrein putzen. Dafür bezahlen sie eine Reinigungspauschale von 6 Franken pro Quadratmeter (bei Spannteppichen kommt ein Zuschlag dazu). In der restlichen Schweiz ist eine Wohnung vor der Abgabe hingegen gründlich zu putzen.
Diese Sonderregelung in der Nordwestschweiz (Basel und Umgebung) ist nicht etwa darauf zurückzuführen, dass dort ein anderes Gesetz gilt. Es liegt vielmehr an den Mietverträgen, die in der Nordwestschweiz fast ausnahmslos diese Regelung enthalten. In seltenen Fällen kommen auch in anderen Teilen der Schweiz Mietverträge vor, die eine besenreine Abgabe bei gleichzeitiger Bezahlung einer Reinigungspauschale vorsehen. Und ebenfalls möglich ist es, dass ein Mietvertrag in der Nordwestschweiz die im Rest der Schweiz gebräuchliche Lösung enthält. Massgebend ist also, was im Mietvertrag steht.

(And here is a google translation

Is it true that are in the north-western Switzerland other rules on cleaning when moving from an apartment?

Answer: Yes, in northwest Switzerland tenants must clean the apartment before delivery usually only swept (besenrein). For this they pay a cleaning fee of 6 francs per square meter (at a surcharge comes to carpet). In the rest of Switzerland an apartment before the levy is to clean thoroughly, however.
This special scheme in the North West Switzerland (Basel and surrounding area) is not due to the fact that there is another law. It lies rather in the lease agreements, contained in the northwestern Switzerland, almost without exception this rule. In rare cases also occur in other parts of Switzerland leases that provide for a swept flat-rate taxes, while paying a cleaning fee. And also it is possible that a rental agreement contains the northwestern Switzerland, the common solution in the rest of Switzerland. The decisive factor is, what is in the lease.
)
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