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-   -   Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think) (https://www.englishforum.ch/insurance/107874-wife-s-employer-didn-t-take-out-accident-insurance-i-think.html)

Cosmos 10.03.2011 20:37

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

I am so glad to hear she is healing well and not in too much pain.

Your employer is right from the Swiss point of view - here you are strongly advised to have personal liability for any visitors to your home. But as the accident happened in Scotland, and the costs are not huge- it is ridiculous for her to use this as an excuse. I feel she is doing it to frighten and intimidate you. It is a very sad fact that there are dozens of cases of Indian women, wives or daughters, being severely burnt and scarred as a punishment. This is a tragic fact- however to use this against you is again really dreadful. Is your wife working again or when is she supposed to go back?

I am absolutely no expert - but I would like to ascertain for absolutely sure, that the employer has NO insurance- because of the future. If there is NONE- I would insist of the employer providing one and give you the proof/copy. I guess the employer will be reluctant to provide this- in which case the BIG question will arise. Will your wife want to continue to work there or not?? And how easy it will be for her to find something else?
Sorry to be blunt - but there is no point complaining about it - and at the same time put up with an un-clear situation. I'd also want to investigate further who and how to expose your employer, if she is acting illegally by not providing insurance- should she not cooperate with the current situation.
Thanks for your useful reply as always. Just to point out it she never accused anyone of pouring oil on anyone. I just get that feeling when she is talking sometimes. She asked my wife if I take care of her properly as well today. And you know that comment in the email I PMed to you about more accidents as well. I don't want to be sued for slander...:)

As for your last paragraph I am torn in what to do. This woman really is a battle axe LOL. And my wife's contract actually finishes at the end of May and her services will no longer be required. It was very difficult for my wife to find something official with a contract which is something I insisted on for evetualities like this, so I am scarred (mentally) by the whole experience and I'm not keen on my wife working in a private household like this again. I think my wife will go back to work though, if for nothing else a good Swiss based reference from this job is worth a good amount.

I will be hitting up the local creches to see if they are after an English speaking assistant...although my wife hasn't got any qualifications she has got a good few years of experience, and she is very good with kids....they all run scared when they see me :(

Cosmos 14.03.2011 16:49

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Just to let everyone know that that her employer no longer requires my wife's services due to this incident.

She has given my wife some sort of letter saying that she's responsible for any other medical bills as well. I've not seen the letter yet but I will have a look when I get home.

I am again livid. I will be taking this further.

Guest 14.03.2011 17:25

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
I'm really sorry about that. It is so difficult to comment without knowing all the facts. You previously said she has a contract and that the contract says she will be insured. What is the notice period - and did the contract say she will be insured for when at work in the employer's house, or in general. I have NO legal experience- but you need to go through the contract word for word and possibly go to Unia's office, the workers union to ascertain legal position. could you scan and copy the contract here- taking names off of course? If she is over 30 she cannot be considered an Au-Pair + she was not living-in so not Au Pair status. I would hazard then that she should have had a work permit. Did she have one? This is a very difficult situation for you. Main thing is though, that she is healing well.

www.unia.ch/Neuchatel

swisspea 14.03.2011 17:27

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Check with the AHV office - was she registered for social security ?

Was/Is she legitimately allowed to work ?

Cosmos 14.03.2011 18:39

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

I'm really sorry about that. It is so difficult to comment without knowing all the facts. You previously said she has a contract and that the contract says she will be insured. What is the notice period - and did the contract say she will be insured for when at work in the employer's house, or in general. I have NO legal experience- but you need to go through the contract word for word and possibly go to Unia's office, the workers union to ascertain legal position. could you scan and copy the contract here- taking names off of course? If she is over 30 she cannot be considered an Au-Pair + she was not living-in so not Au Pair status. I would hazard then that she should have had a work permit. Did she have one? This is a very difficult situation for you. Main thing is though, that she is healing well.

www.unia.ch/Neuchatel
The notice period says for the end of the month with written confirmation one month in advance. She has said her contract will be terminated on the 20th of March.

The contract says she is insured for non-professional accidents. Regardless of this being in the contract it is the law.

She has a residence permit and is allowed to work as we are both British.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swisspea (Post 1134981)
Check with the AHV office - was she registered for social security ?

Was/Is she legitimately allowed to work ?

She is definitely registered with the AVS as her employer gave her the AVS card.

She was legitimately allowed to work.

She made my wife sign a letter today though. My wife insisted on not signing it but she said that my wife had to sign in order to confirm that she had read it. This was just a letter stating that her contract is terminated as of x date.

Cosmos 14.03.2011 18:41

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
The contract only gives notice of termination for resignation. AFAIK resignation would be if the employee wants to stop work. There is no mention of notice for the employer so this would be under normal law I guess. I'm not sure what this would be for short contracts. I will do a forum search though.

She claims that she can just stop the contract because my wife is in her trial period. This is a lie since the contract says the trial period is for one week and my wife has worked there for one month. She said the trial period was for one month.

Guest 14.03.2011 18:43

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
I'd defo go to Unia tomorrow and ask for advice and support. Of course take contract, letter, AVS docs, with you. Bonne chance.

Cosmos 14.03.2011 18:59

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

I'd defo go to Unia tomorrow and ask for advice and support. Of course take contract, letter, AVS docs, with you. Bonne chance.
It seems like the right thing to do. I might give them a phone call tomorrow and see if they speak English for a start. Or get a friend to do this if not...don't worry I won't hassle you again Odile :)


I am just so angry over this though. :o I must also say that my wife was basically forced to go back to work today since the nurse here said she is fine to go back to work and the employer basically ignored my wife's medical certificate from Scotland saying it is invalid.

Ziger 14.03.2011 21:01

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos (Post 1135083)
It seems like the right thing to do. I might give them a phone call tomorrow and see if they speak English for a start. Or get a friend to do this if not...don't worry I won't hassle you again Odile :)

What a nightmare this is turning into!

I am not sure that Unia is the right place to go. Are you a member? The courts offer free legal advice with regard to employment law but in German only. Here is the website (click on the map to find the nearest location): http://www.gerichte-zh.ch/themen/arb...sauskunft.html. Here is information from Zürich city (German only) with a list of what you need to bring: http://www.gerichte-zh.ch/fileadmin/...tsauskunft.pdf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos (Post 1135083)
I am just so angry over this though. :o I must also say that my wife was basically forced to go back to work today since the nurse here said she is fine to go back to work and the employer basically ignored my wife's medical certificate from Scotland saying it is invalid.

Why is a nurse determining her fitness to go back to work? You need to see a doctor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos (Post 1135083)
She claims that she can just stop the contract because my wife is in her trial period. This is a lie since the contract says the trial period is for one week and my wife has worked there for one month. She said the trial period was for one month.

She is claiming the trial period is one month because that is what it is in Art. 335b of the Swiss Code of Obligations, provided that there is no agreement in the contract which states otherwise, which in this case there is. So, as it is clearly stated in the contract (I assume) that the trial period is one week, she is on very shaky ground legally.

I would advise you to go to the "Rechtsauskunft" (the free legal advice) offered by the courts, sooner rather than later. At another time I would have offered to go with you but unfortunately it is impossible. Good luck sorting this out!

mrshunkydorey 15.03.2011 13:57

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1963.asp...CategoryID=159

I hope this helps. Sorry for the delay. :)

jenny 16.03.2011 16:17

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Just a couple of points that I think may have been missed in this thread (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thing in detail) :
  • As an employer, if you employ somebody who works 8 hours a week or more, you have to insure them (by law) through your companies accident insurance for both professional and non-professional accidents.
  • If you are employed for less than 8 hours a week (e.g. a cleaner who maybe comes 3 or 4 hours a week) then your employer can STILL insure you for professional accidents only. However, any non-professional accidents (e.g. skiing) would be covered by your own health insurance which should have been taken out "with" accidents.
I'll give you an example.

I'm part of an association in Vevey and we employ someone to do our accounts on a (very) part-time basis. I think last year she earned about 3'500.- for the whole year. We still insure her for any accidents she might have whilst working for us. It's really inexpensive - because she earns so little, we pay a forfait of 100.- a year.

Your wife's employer should therefore be insuring AT LEAST professional accidents and if she definitely works more than 8 hours a week (on average across a full calender year) then she should be covered for non-professional accidents too).

Other points in this thread :
  • No deductible on accident insurance going through an employer
  • Deductible on personal accident insurance (which is the same deductible as for any illnesses - it's on the same policy)
  • AP = professional accidents in French
  • ANP = non-professional accidents in French
  • AHV = AVS
  • As far as I'm aware, your wife can't be sacked because of this accident! (another point to check with Unia). You cannot be sacked if you are off work sick or pregnant so I don't see why an accident should be any different.
  • Your wife's employer's son's accident was no doubt reimbursed by the person who knocked him off his bike because of the popular liability insurance. If he'd fallen off his bike himself and broken his leg, then it would have been his own health insurance (which would include accidents if he's not employed) that would cover it.
In defense of your wife's employer (although it pains me to defend such a person), your wife may have been on a 3 month trial period which is pretty standard in Switzerland. If this was the case then maybe she was waiting until the trial period was over before affiliating her to the accident insurance.

e.g. If you are unemployed and are therefore insured "with accidents" through your health insurance company and then find work, your health insurance company may not take your accident insurance off straight away but rather wait until the first 3 months are up (I've seen it happen).

---

Apologies for the marathon message! Hopefully it's cleared up a couple of points.

I think I speak for us all when I wish your wife a speedy recovery and hopefully there won't be any long-term scars or tissue damage.

And lastly, let's all hope that racism hasn't played a part in all this either.

Jenny
:)

Cosmos 16.03.2011 16:29

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jenny (Post 1137247)
Just a couple of points that I think may have been missed in this thread (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thing in detail) :
  • As an employer, if you employ somebody who works 8 hours a week or more, you have to insure them (by law) through your companies accident insurance for both professional and non-professional accidents.
  • If you are employed for less than 8 hours a week (e.g. a cleaner who maybe comes 3 or 4 hours a week) then your employer can STILL insure you for professional accidents only. However, any non-professional accidents (e.g. skiing) would be covered by your own health insurance which should have been taken out "with" accidents.
I'll give you an example.

I'm part of an association in Vevey and we employ someone to do our accounts on a (very) part-time basis. I think last year she earned about 3'500.- for the whole year. We still insure her for any accidents she might have whilst working for us. It's really inexpensive - because she earns so little, we pay a forfait of 100.- a year.

Your wife's employer should therefore be insuring AT LEAST professional accidents and if she definitely works more than 8 hours a week (on average across a full calender year) then she should be covered for non-professional accidents too).

Other points in this thread :
  • No deductible on accident insurance going through an employer
  • Deductible on personal accident insurance (which is the same deductible as for any illnesses - it's on the same policy)
  • AP = professional accidents in French
  • ANP = non-professional accidents in French
  • AHV = AVS
  • As far as I'm aware, your wife can't be sacked because of this accident! (another point to check with Unia). You cannot be sacked if you are off work sick or pregnant so I don't see why an accident should be any different.
  • Your wife's employer's son's accident was no doubt reimbursed by the person who knocked him off his bike because of the popular liability insurance. If he'd fallen off his bike himself and broken his leg, then it would have been his own health insurance (which would include accidents if he's not employed) that would cover it.
In defense of your wife's employer (although it pains me to defend such a person), your wife may have been on a 3 month trial period which is pretty standard in Switzerland. If this was the case then maybe she was waiting until the trial period was over before affiliating her to the accident insurance.

e.g. If you are unemployed and are therefore insured "with accidents" through your health insurance company and then find work, your health insurance company may not take your accident insurance off straight away but rather wait until the first 3 months are up (I've seen it happen).

---

Apologies for the marathon message! Hopefully it's cleared up a couple of points.

I think I speak for us all when I wish your wife a speedy recovery and hopefully there won't be any long-term scars or tissue damage.

And lastly, let's all hope that racism hasn't played a part in all this either.

Jenny
:)

Thanks for the reply Jenny. I am going to see a lawyer about this today.

The part in bold is what I'm confused about.

She has worked 15 hours per week for the last month and her contract was until the end of May. But if you average that over 12 months then it would be less than 8 hours per week. Sorry if that's a dumb question.

Regardless of this point it does say in her contract that she is covered for non-professional accidents...so she should have been.

jenny 16.03.2011 16:34

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos (Post 1137271)
Thanks for the reply Jenny. I am going to see a lawyer about this today.

The part in bold is what I'm confused about.

She has worked 15 hours per week for the last month and her contract was until the end of May. But if you average that over 12 months then it would be less than 8 hours per week. Sorry if that's a dumb question.

Regardless of this point it does say in her contract that she is covered for non-professional accidents...so she should have been.

Sorry, I meant if she worked for a whole year, on average.

e.g. someone who works on an hourly basis may do 5 hours one week and then 35 the next etc. you need to average it out in this type of case.

Like you say, it doesn't really matter as her contract states that she is covered for non-professional accidents. If it doesn't mention a 3-month trial period or anything like that then she should have been covered.

I think there are quite a few of us who would be interested to hear how you get on with your lawyer and what the outcome is.

Good luck :)

Cosmos 16.03.2011 16:41

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jenny (Post 1137280)
Sorry, I meant if she worked for a whole year, on average.

e.g. someone who works on an hourly basis may do 5 hours one week and then 35 the next etc. you need to average it out in this type of case.

Like you say, it doesn't really matter as her contract states that she is covered for non-professional accidents. If it doesn't mention a 3-month trial period or anything like that then she should have been covered.

I think there are quite a few of us who would be interested to hear how you get on with your lawyer and what the outcome is.

Good luck :)

The contract actually states a one week trial period. :confused: I sometimes think she takes me for a complete moron. Some of the emails I get from her in reply to my emails are hilarious. I will ask a specific set of questions and get a reply to something completely different. I do feel for her since her mother is unwell just now. But that's really no reason for her to screw us around.

As for the accident being my father's liability. She said that the insurance MAY claim from my father since the accident happened in his house and he is liable for what happens in his house. She keeps saying there may be some investigation if she's goes through the insurance. I simply tell her that I have nothing to hide and they can investigate all they want. :dunno:

jenny 16.03.2011 16:44

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos (Post 1137292)
Some of the emails I get from her in reply to my emails are hilarious. I will ask a specific set of questions and get a reply to something completely different. I do feel for her since her mother is unwell just now.

Sounds like she should go into politics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos (Post 1137292)
But that's really no reason for her to screw us around.

Quite right

Cosmos 16.03.2011 16:46

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jenny (Post 1137306)
Sounds like she should go into politics



Quite right

Since you are an insurance pro Jenny, is it possible that my father be liable for the costs incurred by the insurance company during this accident?

Edit: Given what you know. Completely my wife's own fault my father in another room. If anything I thought my dad might claim against me for the ruined floor!

Joey82 16.03.2011 16:50

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
My avatar is copyrighted Cosmos :)

Please change it in order not to confuse people of who is posting.

Thanks

Joey

Regarding the topic : Will you try the letter from a solicitor first and see what the response is?
That will cost you less than make it into a full blown courtcase.

Cosmos 16.03.2011 16:51

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey82 (Post 1137325)
My avatar is copyrighted Cosmos :)

Please change it in order not to confuse people of who is posting.

Thanks

Joey

Apologies. I find this online and thought it was cute. I shall change it straight away....

Cosmos 16.03.2011 16:58

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
http://www.oan.ch/

This is the first port of call tonight. I'm hoping the lawyer speaks English. And I will take it from there.

16.03.2011 17:04

Re: Wife's employer didn't take out accident insurance (I think)
 
The union Unia is a very good beginning to clear up a messy situation. They would be able to point you in the right direction. Your wife can easily join and the they will help her without having a "financial interest".

Where do you live? There must be somebody here that can go with you.


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