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Old 20.05.2011, 18:03
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3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Hello Forum,

Just to make you aware that what some peddlers of financial products call 'the Swiss ISA' or more commonly known as a 3rd pillar account can sometimes be hidden in a horrible package involving a life insurance policy with your money tied up until the day you die, or at best until you retire.

We are talking about the mis guidance of selling of financial products here so please all beware. Its the big names you see in the big towns that have these awful products that in reality should not be even considered for any person who is not going to live and work in Switzerland for at least the next 10 years. i.e. expats who dont fully understand the Swiss tax and financial systems should not be approached. This does not stop the pay out chasing 'advisors' and 'agents' pushing these products onto you with very little information. Once you have signed, that’s it...the only person that will help you from that point is yourself...WATCH OUT!

The problem is the 3rd pillar money stays in Switzerland until you retire (like it would with an 3rd pillar account in CS or UBS) but the difference is you must pay the full 6300 CHF until you retire...not good!..Plus there is a HUGE portion of the money taken on outset by the salesman and insurance company that effectively means that until around year 10 its not even broken even and of course how many of us will be here and working and earning in Swiss francs at year 10? So what do you do….you enquire about closing it and then you start to cry at the realisation you have been sold and mis advised to take a product that is just not suitable for you.

Tell you colleagues, friends, people in the pub to watch out…

Some of the most well known names on the Swiss high street are out there selling these products, usually via a salesman so that when it comes to the crunch they can claim they were not present in the sales meeting.

Anyone else had this experience? Are we allowed to name and shame the companies selling these products here?

WATCH OUT!!!
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Old 20.05.2011, 18:54
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

...erm... you do know that the 3rd pillar can be withdrawn 1) to make mortgage payments and 2) when you leave the country, and 3) are perfectly valid means of reducing taxes for Swiss and expats alike?

...or is this a particular "investment package" that you are talking about?

(And no, usually you are not allowed to name and shame, due to fear of litigation. You might also find that your thread is merged with this one.)
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Old 20.05.2011, 19:00
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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...erm... you do know that the 3rd pillar can be withdrawn 1) to make mortgage payments and 2) when you leave the country, and 3) are perfectly valid means of reducing taxes for Swiss and expats alike?

...or is this a particular "investment package" that you are talking about?

(And no, usually you are not allowed to name and shame, due to fear of litigation. You might also find that your thread is merged with this one.)
3rd pilar comes in 2 forms: like a bank account or as life insurance.
The bank account costs nothing you get what you invested + the interest. Whereas the life insurance case one has to pay for the risk that is covering you. So what you get is what you invested - cost of insurance.
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Old 20.05.2011, 19:08
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

No I did not know that the the 3rd pillar can be used for mortgage payments. Im looking at the listing from Swiss Wife I received it does not say this.

I agree you can take the 3rd pillar out of Switzerland when you leave, but the the immense cost of the life insurance is deducted - so called surrender value. Plus minus from four years 3rd pillar ive paid in (25k) the surrender value - what ill get back, is around half this money!!...Was this made clear to me on outset? No, of course not. Do I need a life insurance policy in Switzerland, no of course not, did I intend to pay into a Swiss life insurance policy until im 65? No, of course not...

So thanks sir, but the objective of this post is to make people aware that these big companies posing as your mainstay of the Swiss high street have such products that they push using external parties (who are paid well to sell) and of course have huge penalties once you have signed up (well someone needs to pay the advisor and selling company).

However I will investigate about the mortgage payments, but I think like every other avenue ive tried to explore I will be told no and the money is tied into CH until I leave or im 65.

Ta.
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Old 20.05.2011, 19:29
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Seems like an ideal spot to shamelessly plug my own thread
Financial Mis-selling to expats
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Old 20.05.2011, 19:54
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

I absolutely agree that you need to be aware of the difference between 'cash investment' pillar 3 products and insurance based pillar 3 products. The latter, like most 'complex' insurance related policies are great earners for the sellers, but are generally not good for relatively short term investment. If you hold for the long term and if the suppliers fees/charges etc are low and if the performance of the underlying investments are good, these can make some sense for some people. But you must be aware of the pitfalls. I would generally suggest non-insurance related products unless you really have done your homework.
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Old 08.01.2015, 15:23
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Hi all,

I realise this thread is old but am having exactly this problem - we took out Life Insurance (3rd pillar) with a major Swiss insurance company, only to find out later that if we leave Switzerland and want to close the insurance, we lose practically half the money we have put in due to the surrender value.

Has anyone found a solution to this? If Im reading the above trail correctly, is seems like it would be possible to keep paying into the insurance until the surrender value decreases sufficiently, even if we are no longer living in the country?

We have now had 3 meetings with the company concerned about this, and seem to get told a different thing every time.

Many thanks and all the very best,
Wendy.
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Old 11.03.2015, 00:33
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Does any of you found a solution?

I have subscribed to a life insurance 3a thinking it's a good idea and knowing I'll leave Switzerland within a few years.
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Old 11.08.2015, 15:46
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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Hi all,

I realise this thread is old but am having exactly this problem - we took out Life Insurance (3rd pillar) with a major Swiss insurance company, only to find out later that if we leave Switzerland and want to close the insurance, we lose practically half the money we have put in due to the surrender value.

Has anyone found a solution to this? If Im reading the above trail correctly, is seems like it would be possible to keep paying into the insurance until the surrender value decreases sufficiently, even if we are no longer living in the country?

We have now had 3 meetings with the company concerned about this, and seem to get told a different thing every time.

Many thanks and all the very best,
Wendy.
Hi all,
I'm also with the same problem!
I did a 3a with an insurance company, I'm moving out from switzerland at the end of the month and it seems that I can only have about 50% of all 3.5 years amount.
Does any of you tried a transfer from an insurance company to a bank before moving out?
In that case is the insurance company also allowed to keep the 50%?
I was informed in my bank that I can transfer this 3a without costs from their side till the end of the month and then proceed to the withdrawal before leaving switzerland but they can not inform me about the cost that the insurance company will retain for that transaction!
Any idea???
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Old 11.08.2015, 16:11
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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Hi all,
I'm also with the same problem!
I did a 3a with an insurance company, I'm moving out from switzerland at the end of the month and it seems that I can only have about 50% of all 3.5 years amount.
Does any of you tried a transfer from an insurance company to a bank before moving out?
In that case is the insurance company also allowed to keep the 50%?
I was informed in my bank that I can transfer this 3a without costs from their side till the end of the month and then proceed to the withdrawal before leaving switzerland but they can not inform me about the cost that the insurance company will retain for that transaction!
Any idea???
You won't get much back, you bought a long term insurance policy with 'tax benefits'. The money you cash out will of course be taxable.....
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Old 11.08.2015, 16:22
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Unless you can guarantee that you're going to be staying in Switzerland for 10+ years and are able to pay in the full tax free amount every year then you should avoid life insurance pillar 3 and just stick it in a 3rd pillar bank account.



In this case I'm afraid you won't get much back.
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Old 10.12.2015, 23:15
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Normally (retirement or exceptional early withdrawals aside), Is it true that you're obliged to pay each year into your fund with the insurance company? Whereas, with a bank product, there's no such obligation to continue paying? So, does it mean I can buy a new bank 3rd pillar fund every year if I wish?

Also, is it true that insurance fund won't allow switching to different company; whereas the bank fund has no such restriction?

If I want exposure to equities (stocks), is it true that a insurance fund is my only resort? Bank will only invest in boring fixed income products that earn 0.5 to 1.5% p.a.

So basically, all those evil restrictions of the insurance company, exist so you can (in theory) benefit from long term stocks investment. How correct is this statement?

Let's get our facts right NOW!! The deadline for tax benefits is 31st December!
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Old 10.12.2015, 23:38
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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Normally (retirement or exceptional early withdrawals aside), Is it true that you're obliged to pay each year into your fund with the insurance company? Whereas, with a bank product, there's no such obligation to continue paying? So, does it mean I can buy a new bank 3rd pillar fund every year if I wish?

Also, is it true that insurance fund won't allow switching to different company; whereas the bank fund has no such restriction?

If I want exposure to equities (stocks), is it true that a insurance fund is my only resort? Bank will only invest in boring fixed income products that earn 0.5 to 1.5% p.a.

So basically, all those evil restrictions of the insurance company, exist so you can (in theory) benefit from long term stocks investment. How correct is this statement?

Let's get our facts right NOW!! The deadline for tax benefits is 31st December!
Your nationality, not visible in your profile, can be important in determining the benefits of a Pillar 3a investment.
Anyway, in general, go for a bank solution unless you are really, really sure that an insurance based solution is right for you.
You can select a bank deposit type account or you can select from a number of bank funds with varying degrees of exposure to the financial markets. You can pay in up to a maximum of (currently) 6,768 Francs per year if you are working and a member of a company pension scheme. There also are other rules.
Example (not necessarily a recommendation) https://www.ubs.com/ch/en/swissbank/...llar-3/3a.html
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If you have difficulties with a post which contains a link to a site in one of the Swiss languages, use Google Translate or your own favourite translating browser.
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Old 11.12.2015, 00:31
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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Normally (retirement or exceptional early withdrawals aside), Is it true that you're obliged to pay each year into your fund with the insurance company? Whereas, with a bank product, there's no such obligation to continue paying? So, does it mean I can buy a new bank 3rd pillar fund every year if I wish?

Also, is it true that insurance fund won't allow switching to different company; whereas the bank fund has no such restriction?

If I want exposure to equities (stocks), is it true that a insurance fund is my only resort? Bank will only invest in boring fixed income products that earn 0.5 to 1.5% p.a.

So basically, all those evil restrictions of the insurance company, exist so you can (in theory) benefit from long term stocks investment. How correct is this statement?

Let's get our facts right NOW!! The deadline for tax benefits is 31st December!
You can have equity investment from banks including Post Finance. NEVER EVER EVER buy an insurance policy that is sold as an INVESTMENT, it's always a bad deal.
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Old 26.12.2015, 18:51
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

The reason why investments (especially retirement investments) were often bundled with insurance was solely because of tax savings and loopholes, and that internal gains within the product were not taxable. For the same reason and the (now abrogated) MIRAS arrangement in the UK, interest-only endowment mortgages coupled with an endowment life insurance policy were once popular. As were variable annuities, especially in the USA.

Insurance companies don't stop selling an obsolete product when the tax justification for creating it has gone away. And sadly, those who sold such products, and pushed the savings and loan industry into insolvency in the USA and the UK, leading to the privatisation of what had been mutual and co-operative institutions (and the raiding of their reserves for a (small) profit to "carpetbaggers" and a big profit to senior management) is notorious. That was part Thatcherism and Reaganism and part theft and greed. Think: Silverado, Northern Rock.

US Persons (American citizens, green-card holders, certain present and former residents) would encounter PFIC and FATCA and perhaps foreign trust (form 3520) problems in holding such investments and the seller would probably be in violation of US securities law and certainly tax law (the kind that has led Swiss banks to pay hundreds of millions in fines and forfeitures to the USG.

Those who were sold such products on the basis that "the IRS will never know" may have claims for that reason, although s/he may have FATCA and FBAR and 3520 and PFIC problems too. Potentially there is a False Claims Act reward, who knows.

I would not rely on the good graces of those who mis-sold a retirement or investment product. At least the buyer of a Swiss product, unlike the buyer of a bad American one or an investor in the notorious Lloyd's of London shell game, is probably not bound by some one-sided arbitration agreement. (A search of recent New York Times articles will explain: https://encrypted.google.com/search?...%3Anytimes.com )

PFIC imposes taxation and imputed interest charges on the internal -- otherwise untaxed -- profits, gains and accruals of an investment product other than (for example) the shares of a single operating company or title to real property (real estate). It has frightful consequences for any (taxable) US person, even for a product which is not a scam (Madoff's European feeder funds) or a high commission profit centre for the selling agent.
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Old 26.12.2015, 23:01
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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an investor in the notorious Lloyd's of London shell game, .
I don't think Lloyds of London has ever been a game & historically never had 'investors' in the normal term, it had names who wrote business with unlimited liability. Anyone becoming a name knew EXACTLY the risk they were taking & were told on an individual basis that they were liable down to the shirt on their back. No point in crying when you lost out.
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Old 27.12.2015, 15:00
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

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I don't think Lloyds of London has ever been a game & historically never had 'investors' in the normal term, it had names who wrote business with unlimited liability. Anyone becoming a name knew EXACTLY the risk they were taking & were told on an individual basis that they were liable down to the shirt on their back. No point in crying when you lost out.
Lloyd's of London became a tax-shelter investment when marginal tax rates in Britain were 90% for earned income. When that changed, Lloyd's members agents looked to America for investors. They faked SEC exemption ("Regulation D"), claiming that all their investors were "accredited" (i.e. more than a million dollars in wealth exclusive of their home). I know this was false because I was a bankruptcy lawyer and had dozens of Lloyd's member clients in the 1990s. Have a look at http://uniset.ca/lloyds

You may not feel sorry for a teacher living in Staten Island and making $30,000 a year (his mother put up money for his Lloyd's guarantee and a home equity loan supplied the rest), but that I had to file Chapter 13 bankruptcy for him says it all.

The scam was this: Lloyd's was selling reinsurance to reinsurers: high-value remote risks in the excess=-of-loss-spiral. "Spiral" because the risk was so "remote" that until the a series of terrible losses in the late 1990s (hurricane in Britain, the Piper Alpha, air crashes) there were few claims. So the underwriting agents thought it "unfair" that these naive investors (yes, they were investors) should make so much money. So they churned the premiums -- reinsured needlessly in layers -- taking fees each time. And they reinsured their own risks on the back of these reinsurance syndicates.

So in the end, outsiders -- not working members -- were left to pay everything. And they couldn't: it turned out that their own "excess" policies sold to them by Lloyd's were worthless because the syndicates selling them went bust too.

Mary Archer (wife of the novelist) was put in charge of a charity to "help" the insolvent "Names". In fact the application forms and data she collected were turned over to the nasty lawyers acting for Lloyd's.

It gave me great pleasure when LeBoeuf Lamb -- Lloyd's Wall Street lawyers, themselves, went bust years later (part of an arrogant merger with Dewey Ballantine in which many of the senior partners managed to get away scot-free, leaving the younger ones with unplayable losses). See the Wikipedia page and the New Yorker article.

Enough said: the site I linked to has all the arguments (about ten law review articles) condemning the USG for keeping the courts out. The SEC (and indeed federal judges) were compromised (as they were in the Madoff case -- see Markopolos's book) by intimidating Wall Street law firm-lobbyists.

So: Lloyd's (which claims to be an "innocent market" and not a solicitor of investors (something now true that individuals no longer invest as such) sold investors catastrophic-loss cover that was worthless. And the insiders all made money while the outsiders lost everything. You can read some of the bankruptcy filings -- and all the documentary submissions to the courts -- at the Lloyd's of London Database I linked to.

If you believe Lloyd's as an institution is "innocent" then you probably believe everything Donald Trump and some of the other Republican candidates are saying about economics. And doubtless you believe in supply-side economics and the trickle-down theory. Because Lloyd's certainly put it over on people: (1) Membership was (like membership in an exclusive club) a pathway to acceptance by the British Establishment (the Jewish Chronicle commented at the time on why there were so many Jewish members of Lloyd's; that was put forward as one possibility); (2) "Yes, you are liable down to your last cufflink, but we have covered the risks, it's just a technicality".

The striking thing was that the US courts ignored the fact that Lloyd's was an unlawful investment under the US Securities Laws. The appellate decisions were precursors to a problem made worse by the US Supreme Court in years since: that US consumers and investors are bound to arbitrate, under terms and in a jurisdiction chosen by the adversary: https://encrypted.google.com/search?...rs+arbitration

There were a few Swiss who invested in Lloyd's, but fewer than those who later invested in Madoff. In both cases they invested based on fraudulent representation, but typically they were innocently recruited by other "marks" who, themselves, were victims who thought they'd found a secret. Not one that paid unbelievable profits like a typical Ponzi: more like Barlow Clowes (which sold investments in gilts but diverted the money to the pockets of the promoters) offering just a fraction more than could be earned in an index fund. (Barlow Clowes was, I think a Ponzi but they had a British Government (DoT) license and in the end the Government had to reimburse some or most of the losers, as I recall. (Those who invested "offshore" in Barlow Clowes's Gibraltar branch got nothing back.)

Maybe it all started with Bernie Cornfeld ("Do you sincerely want to be rich"), I can't say. I do know he lived once at the Hotel des Artistes; soon after he left I lived across the street from there.
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Old 27.12.2015, 18:02
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Very nice to see a post on a financial topic by someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
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Old 01.11.2016, 18:09
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Re: 3rd piller with Life Insurance - WATCH OUT!

Thanks so much for this post !!!
I nearly signed a 3rd pillar with Swiss life today !
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