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Old 27.08.2007, 23:34
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Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Has anyone seen this movie?
How much is the US health care similar to the Swiss one?

I'm waiting for your opinions. Thank you
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Old 28.08.2007, 04:17
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Swiss healthcare is far superior to most other countries. Like the documentary points out- look at the number of people who cannot afford healthcare in the US. There are ways round it- free clinics and the right to emergency admission. For single parents or those on low income- it can be a major problem. Also doctor's practices may not be as well equipped in the US. The doctors that I went to in Switzerland were very proud of having the latest tools/toys. Experience-wise though I trust US doctors more, they have to be good to dodge the lawsuit practices. The oldboy's network is evident in Switzerland and I have never heard of anyone suing a Swiss doctor.
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Old 28.08.2007, 04:31
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Thanks for your post, Verena.

All you told is about the differences between US and Swiss doctors... although it was an useful info, I expected more info about the general healthcare of Switzerland. Is it better than, per example, the French one? Or the British one?

I must tell that I never used the Swiss healthcare because I passed almost all my life outside of CH.
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Old 28.08.2007, 05:06
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Well I'll try to fish around for figures. But in my opinion it is better than the UK or French, where you can die on a waiting list. The best way to skip the waiting list in the UK ,is to get the name of the consultant that you need to see at a teaching hospital and then pay for an initial private appointment. Once the consultant has requested and made appointments for tests, ( which will probably be at the teaching hospital anyway) then switch back to the NHS for them to pay for them. I can only speak from a personal point of view. From what I have seen in Austria and France, Switzerland is superior.
I think that Swiss healthcare is all-encompassing. Swiss children are trained at school to eat healthy, get plenty of fresh air and exercise and to have good hygiene habits. Children are regularly evaluated and quickly referred to a specialist if necessary, even for minor problems. Extensive provision at tremendous cost is made for the sick and elderly.
The Swiss are probably amongst the healthiest people in Europe. (excluding the suicide rate) Most of the people I knew as immigrants from US, and commonweath countries railed about the Swiss healthsystem.
Basically for a the best all round healthcare for residents, Switzerland would be my choice. For the most experienced surgeons it would be the UK or US.
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Old 28.08.2007, 05:19
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/bus/...2.21730ee.html

This one compares the two systems there are many others all point to the Swiss system being better then the US. The costof drugs can be very high in Switzerland without a healthcare plan.
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Old 28.08.2007, 06:59
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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Thanks for your post, Verena.

All you told is about the differences between US and Swiss doctors... although it was an useful info, I expected more info about the general healthcare of Switzerland. Is it better than, per example, the French one? Or the British one?

I must tell that I never used the Swiss healthcare because I passed almost all my life outside of CH.
Talking from personal experience, the system here is much more efficient in terms of being seen & being treated in a short time span, compared to the UK.
I also like the fact that doctors here are not into the 5 minute consultation & out. They seem more than happy to take their time, discussing every angle with you.
Waiting lists for consultations with specialists in the UK are a joke. I had a suspected heart murmur here & was diagnosed & had seen a cardio specialist in 24 hrs here. Thankfully it was something else. In the UK, I have been reliably informed, it would probably have taken 6-9 months ..
A lot of people bang on about cost of health insurance here, but coming from a country where the social system deducts at source for the above crappy service, I am more than happy to pay it. ( 720 chf for family of three)
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Old 28.08.2007, 08:29
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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Has anyone seen this movie?
How much is the US health care similar to the Swiss one?
I've seen the movie and originally coming from an "America is great" brainwashed nation - I'm actually still in SHOCK.

It is ironic that a nation as rich and powerful as America could squander billions of dollars on "war" and save on the health care of the people who paid for it - that they have to resolve the problem by crossing the Canadian border or even seeking help in Cuba (as shown in the movie, not a normal occurence though!!), or just die of an illness that could have been treated, etc.

To get a health insurance in the US, one has to get pre-approved - meaning there is a very long list of illnesses/diseases that would deny the ill, even the potentially ill of the insurance. Even if one "suceeds" to get the health insurance, it does not guarantee low cost and proper treatment (since they could deny treatment which are deemed "unnecessary" and of course the approving medical director does not have any idea that he actually signed a treatment denial - it's just a standard form & his signature just happens to be stamped on it!!)

There are still a lot of things that were exposed in the movie but the above-mentioned alone being said, I think the Swiss health care system is already way ahead!
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Old 28.08.2007, 09:32
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Please don't forget that Michael Moore's films (although documentary in nature) are not unbiased (actually they are quite heavily biased in the favor of his position). Although his films can be a great tool to learn a bit of information they should in no way be taken as fact.

Just because you see a movie on it, doesn't make it necessarily how things are.

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I've seen the movie and originally coming from an "America is great" brainwashed nation - I'm actually still in SHOCK.

It is ironic that a nation as rich and powerful as America could squander billions of dollars on "war" and save on the health care of the people who paid for it - that they have to resolve the problem by crossing the Canadian border or even seeking help in Cuba (as shown in the movie, not a normal occurence though!!), or just die of an illness that could have been treated, etc.

To get a health insurance in the US, one has to get pre-approved - meaning there is a very long list of illnesses/diseases that would deny the ill, even the potentially ill of the insurance. Even if one "suceeds" to get the health insurance, it does not guarantee low cost and proper treatment (since they could deny treatment which are deemed "unnecessary" and of course the approving medical director does not have any idea that he actually signed a treatment denial - it's just a standard form & his signature just happens to be stamped on it!!)

There are still a lot of things that were exposed in the movie but the above-mentioned alone being said, I think the Swiss health care system is already way ahead!
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Old 28.08.2007, 10:13
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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Just because you see a movie on it, doesn't make it necessarily how things are.
you mean cars don't fly in real life ??? OMG ....

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Old 28.08.2007, 11:31
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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Please don't forget that Michael Moore's films (although documentary in nature) are not unbiased (actually they are quite heavily biased in the favor of his position). Although his films can be a great tool to learn a bit of information they should in no way be taken as fact.

Just because you see a movie on it, doesn't make it necessarily how things are.
I know that Michael Moore films already show to some extent - the extreme.. It's just that, from where I'm from, America is tantamount to paradise - now I'm beginning to get over 26 years of brainwashing!

On the other hand, if it isn't for Michael Moore movies - where will we have any clue on what is happening to the few (considering these films are biased on Michael Moore's favor).. Could it be, that there is also extreme bias on the truths / ideals being pesented on a day-to-day basis?
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Old 28.08.2007, 11:43
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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The best way to skip the waiting list in the UK ,is to get the name of the consultant that you need to see at a teaching hospital and then pay for an initial private appointment. Once the consultant has requested and made appointments for tests, ( which will probably be at the teaching hospital anyway) then switch back to the NHS for them to pay for them.

Hmmm... could that be why the waiting lists on the NHS are so long? People with money jumping the queue. I suppose the system is wrong but there are always people there ready to exploit it...

My father has to wait 8 months for his next appointment with a consultant for quite a painful condition. I suppose he's stuck in a queue behind people with fat wallets.

I've used the Swiss healthcare system a fair bit since being here (minor ailments and a pregnancy, plus aftercare) and have no complaints. The treatment is effective and efficient, and, I believe, worth the money.
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:02
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps personal culpability for what is really going on in ones' country? I also lived in America for about 26 years but I don't consider myself to be brainwashed

I think it's unfortunate that people would need to see a hollywood movie to make them aware of the plight of the less fortunate in ones' own country.

Anyhoo, About the Swiss health care system. I had the pleasure of spending a grand total of 18 days in the "Universitätspital" They are absolutely lovely there, I was given absolutely phenomenal care. However, they tend to be a bit antiquated with their medications (probably in part due to the difference in aggressive pharma marketing between here and the US, which isn't necessarily 100% a bad thing. All those pharmaceutical sales reps do help to keep doctors a little more up-to-date on current advances in medication, however, there are bad aspects to that whole process too). Also, whereas the US tends to be a bit more aggressive in their speediness of treatment (mainly because of pressure of insurance companies to keep costs down) the Swiss tend to be more cautious. My 18 day hospital stay could have been shortened down to about 8 if they would have just done what they ended up doing in the first place instead of pussy-footing around. This is of course just my experience.

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I know that Michael Moore films already show to some extent - the extreme.. It's just that, from where I'm from, America is tantamount to paradise - now I'm beginning to get over 26 years of brainwashing!

On the other hand, if it isn't for Michael Moore movies - where will we have any clue on what is happening to the few (considering these films are biased on Michael Moore's favor).. Could it be, that there is also extreme bias on the truths / ideals being pesented on a day-to-day basis?
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:10
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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However, they tend to be a bit antiquated with their medications (probably in part due to the difference in aggressive pharma marketing between here and the US, which isn't necessarily 100% a bad thing.
totally agree, I went to the Apotheke this morning to pick up some Zyrtec, as was eaten alive by midges last night ...
the lady that served me laughed & gave me Cet-eco, which is a generic of Zyrtec & is half the price. Would never happen in the UK.

Last edited by evilshell; 29.08.2007 at 06:06. Reason: fixed quote tags
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:19
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Oh, that totally happens in the US. In fact I think it's almost required of pharmacists to offer you the generic. Most insurance companies like it that way too

I was referring to the pain medications I was given. Morphine doesn't really work for me, I would tell them that as I was in a lot of pain but they just kept upping my dosage instead of trying something else.



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However, they tend to be a bit antiquated with their medications (probably in part due to the difference in aggressive pharma marketing between here and the US, which isn't necessarily 100% a bad thing.quote]

totally agree, I went to the Apotheke this morning to pick up some Zyrtec, as was eaten alive by midges last night ...
the lady that served me laughed & gave me Cet-eco, which is a generic of Zyrtec & is half the price. Would never happen in the UK.
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:29
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Michael Moore has produced some good stuff - Wikipedia reference-linkBowling_for_Columbine is probably the best if you simply analyse the meaning behind it and take the simple facts where Moore is in Michigan somewhere north of Detroit and looks at the simple statistics for the US side and the Canadian side of the river there - significantly less gun crime in the 51st State ().

Much of the rest of the movie is obviously edited - I found the NRA/Heston bit to just make me laugh. But statistically, the US has an issue with guns (and the people holding onto them). So kudos to him for highlighting this.

Wikipedia reference-linkFahrenheit_9/11 is again his slant and interpretation into events around 9/11.

Wikipedia reference-linkMichael_Moore shows that Moore has covered many things that he personally dislikes. So biased, yes - carrying some good messages somewhat masked with propaganda? Yes, I think so.
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:31
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

There's an article on SwissInfo about this film.

It mentions something that is often overlooked with the Swiss system in that the companies that provide the basic cover are non-profit making.
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:42
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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Michael Moore has produced some good stuff - Wikipedia reference-linkBowling_for_Columbine is probably the best if you simply analyse the meaning behind it and take the simple facts where Moore is in Michigan somewhere north of Detroit and looks at the simple statistics for the US side and the Canadian side of the river there - significantly less gun crime in the 51st State ()..
Agree that he highlights issues that need to be discussed & are normally ignored or swept under the carpet. Also like MM's tongue in cheek delivery.

A lot of the ripping apart from the US media is undeserved (personal opinion), but lets not forget that he has made millions out of this stuff ... so slanted is a $$$$ maker for him. So sometimes I suspect it is not a wholly altruistic crusade he is on.
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Old 28.08.2007, 12:46
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

I totally agree that Michael Moore does bring some interesting problems to light, I just think people should be wary of how he presents them to make his case.
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Old 28.08.2007, 14:21
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

Verena! Thank you for all your points of view! Very useful.

chemgoddess's: of course I know who is Michael Moore and what is he showing in his films. About his political propaganda within his films, all I do is washing the shirt before using it (it means that I watch the film and separate useful info and political usage of it).

To everyone: thank you for your comments.
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Old 28.08.2007, 14:33
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Re: Sicko (documentary about US health care)

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Verena! Thank you for all your points of view! Very useful.

chemgoddess's: of course I know who is Michael Moore and what is he showing in his films. About his political propaganda within his films, all I do is washing the shirt before using it (it means that I watch the film and separate useful info and political usage of it).

To everyone: thank you for your comments.
It's important to do the washing as you say!

At least MM is makes it easy to see that he has an agenda. Many other sources of "information" try really hard to hide their agenda and try to pass off PR as news/fact.
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