Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Insurance  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 04.07.2012, 00:56
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: .
Posts: 32
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Castor has annoyed a few people around hereCastor has annoyed a few people around here
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
Putting it bluntly, if you don't get the insurance, you don't get the apartment. Or in your case, you would be thrown out. However you could make yourself into a test case, be thrown out of your apartment, take the landlord to court, and be told "You agreed to this clause" "Case dismissed".
Is this what you assume, or is this what you KNOW.

I'm not interested in hearsay, thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04.07.2012, 01:04
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,776
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,666 Times in 7,843 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
I think in CH it would be assumed that painting could only be done by a professional painter, so the clause would never be written in a contract!
well, you wouldn't be required to have the house repainted at all!

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 04.07.2012 at 02:23.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04.07.2012, 01:52
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,866
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
Is this what you assume, or is this what you KNOW.
I'm not interested in hearsay, thanks.
That is what I know will happen to you, justified by experience after living here 23 years.

You came here to the Forum to get advice, you got some. Now go away and do what you want to: just don't come back here whining when the bad landlord put you out on the street, we seldom hand out sympathy after stupidity.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Sbrinz for this useful post:
This user groans at Sbrinz for this post:
  #24  
Old 04.07.2012, 11:15
pumpkinpie's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bern
Posts: 48
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts
pumpkinpie has no particular reputation at present
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

I was required to have renters insurance on many apartments that I rented in the US. In France....DITTO. So, I don't think that it is out of the "norm" or really a "Swiss thing". I have had to use this insurance twice now and am very happy that I didn't slack off on getting it. You just never know when you will need it. It is up to you to take the risk of not being insured in the event of someone checking that you have it...you did sign a contract which is a legal document...or in the case that you damage the apartment.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04.07.2012, 12:48
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,778
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
Glad you know so much about Swiss Law.

Of course there are illegal contracts but a tenancy agreement is very unlikely to be an example of such over here why I stated contracts such as these. If you wish to fight such a standard housing agreement good luck.
Au contraire. A housing rental contract is actually a very good example where some clauses are actually void (only the clause not the contract).

First we have Art. 254B of the Swiss Code of Obligations (OR).
Quote:
A tie-in transaction linked to a lease of residential or commercial premises is void where the conclusion or continuation of the lease is made conditional on such transaction and, under its terms, the tenant assumes an obligation towards the landlord or a third party which is not directly connected with the use of the leased premises.
And then we have Art. 3 of VMWG
Quote:
Als Koppelungsgeschäft im Sinne von Artikel 254 OR gilt insbesondere die Verpflichtung des Mieters, die Mietsache, Möbel oder Aktien zu kaufen oder einen Versicherungsvertrag abzuschliessen.
Now, the above says that clauses that force you to get an insurance are void in a housing rental contract but on the other hand the OR only excludes "not directly connected with the use of the leased premises".

It is the common view on both side of the Maginot Line that a third party liability insurance is in direct relation with the leased premise and thus allowed and legal as long as the leasee is allowed to freely choose any insurance provider. But the OP is free to go in front of a judge with the whole issue and get (hopefully) a ruling in his favor. It is advisable to do this after he has signed said contract.
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 04.07.2012, 13:01
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,776
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,666 Times in 7,843 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
Au contraire. A housing rental contract is actually a very good example where some clauses are actually void (only the clause not the contract).

First we have Art. 254B of the Swiss Code of Obligations (OR).


And then we have Art. 3 of VMWG


Now, the above says that clauses that force you to get an insurance are void in a housing rental contract but on the other hand the OR only excludes "not directly connected with the use of the leased premises".

It is the common view on both side of the Maginot Line that a third party liability insurance is in direct relation with the leased premise and thus allowed and legal as long as the leasee is allowed to freely choose any insurance provider. But the OP is free to go in front of a judge with the whole issue and get (hopefully) a ruling in his favor. It is advisable to do this after he has signed said contract.
strange, based on the translation of the quoted laws, i would have said the requirement to take insurance is not valid. i would argue that the personal liability insurance covers a wide range of liabilities, not only those in relation to the property and as such should be excluded.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 04.07.2012, 13:49
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,778
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
strange, based on the translation of the quoted laws, i would have said the requirement to take insurance is not valid.
You have to keep in mind that the OR is an Act and the other is 'just' a regulation/Verordnung which is based on the OR and thus has lower priority.

Quote:
View Post
i would argue that the personal liability insurance covers a wide range of liabilities, not only those in relation to the property and as such should be excluded.
I agree, thats the way you would have to argue in front of a judge. But maybe the wording in the contract is: "The renter needs a third party liability insurance that will cover damages to the rented object." That could be a specific insurance or a any general third party liability insurance.

To OP: Could you please post the exact wording of your clause? Thank you.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 04.07.2012, 14:33
saharanz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 406
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 258 Times in 138 Posts
saharanz has an excellent reputationsaharanz has an excellent reputationsaharanz has an excellent reputationsaharanz has an excellent reputation
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Not quite on topic but here are examples on EF of illegal/non-enforceable clauses in signed tenancy contracts (that were successfully disputed by the tenant):

Quote:
Penalty clause added in rental contract
In this case it clearly was a Swiss person stiching up a foreigner. The Swiss landlord, who works as a fulltime solicitor in Switzerland, included an illegal clause in the contract. And admitted, when confronted with the witness evidence during the handover of the property last week, they had acccessed the property at least three times without informing us beforehand. When asked why, the answer was "I have a busy day job too, I tried but I couldn't get hold of you." The landlord was in possession of my work phone number, my mobile number, my partner's mobile number, both our e-mail addresses and our home number. Neither one of us had received any missed calls, voicemail messages, e-mails or letters from the landlord.

All I can say is the landlord is lucky we're forgiving people and don't move to have this person struck off from practising law. We're just glad and very relieved we're out of that place. My final comment to you would be, the reason you struggle with your tenants allowing you access to your property, despite of you being a reasonable landlord, is because so many of your peers aren't decent landlords and so many tenants do get their fingers burnt.
In the very unlikely event I would ever have to rent a property in Switzerland again, I would NEVER ever give a key to the landlord. We have always paid our rent on time and looked after the property well. We then give a key to the landlord to increase their chances of renting out the house again and this is how we are being repaid? They have shown us no respect whatsoever and treated us like milk cows.
Quote:
Penalty clause added in rental contract
The hand-written penalty clause in the contract is null and void as it violates art. 164 of the code of obligations (CO). http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/220/a264.html

In particular, take note of art. 264 par. 3 lit. b CO stating that any earnings the landlord has obtained from putting the object to some other use (renting it to another tenant) must be taken into account against the rent owing to him.

Art. 164 CO is mandatory law, so neither party may derogate from it. Therefore, the landlord could have required you to find a replacement tenant but he cannot impose any further obligations on you in case of an early termination of the tenancy.

I found the summary (in German) of a decision by the Cour de justice in Geneva confirming the nullity of such clauses.

http://www.mietrecht.ch/documents/Do...p_3_97_171.pdf

I hope you paid the three month's rent into deposit in your name and not in the landlord's name, which is illegal under art. 257 e CO http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/220/a257e.html. If the account is in your name, the landlord can't withdraw the money without your consent.
My advice is get sound EXPERT advice. Check with the Mieterverband. They will know either way. I've seen it time and time again, that, while the advice here is usually meant well, it's not always accurate.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank saharanz for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 04.07.2012, 14:49
saint7uk's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Samstagern
Posts: 989
Groaned at 9 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 586 Times in 358 Posts
saint7uk has a reputation beyond reputesaint7uk has a reputation beyond reputesaint7uk has a reputation beyond reputesaint7uk has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
You have to keep in mind that the OR is an Act and the other is 'just' a regulation/Verordnung which is based on the OR and thus has lower priority.


I agree, thats the way you would have to argue in front of a judge. But maybe the wording in the contract is: "The renter needs a third party liability insurance that will cover damages to the rented object." That could be a specific insurance or a any general third party liability insurance.

To OP: Could you please post the exact wording of your clause? Thank you.
Well this is the exact crux of the problem, it is open to interpretation. The clause is more standard than not now in agreements and I see it everyday. I shall grill my legal team this arvo and see if they know of a benchmark ruling in either favour...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04.07.2012, 15:25
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,776
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,666 Times in 7,843 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
You have to keep in mind that the OR is an Act and the other is 'just' a regulation/Verordnung which is based on the OR and thus has lower priority.


I agree, thats the way you would have to argue in front of a judge. But maybe the wording in the contract is: "The renter needs a third party liability insurance that will cover damages to the rented object." That could be a specific insurance or a any general third party liability insurance.

To OP: Could you please post the exact wording of your clause? Thank you.
i'd also argue that damaging the property is not related to the use of the property and so the insurance is also not related. but then again, i'm obtuse like that

where would you draw the line? paying for cablecom to be used in the house? buying furniture to be used in the house? buying cleaning services from the LL?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 06.07.2012, 15:17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: .
Posts: 32
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Castor has annoyed a few people around hereCastor has annoyed a few people around here
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
That is what I know will happen to you, justified by experience after living here 23 years.

You came here to the Forum to get advice, you got some. Now go away and do what you want to: just don't come back here whining when the bad landlord put you out on the street, we seldom hand out sympathy after stupidity.
Many thanks for the brave effort, but I don't have time for idiots. Sorry.

Many thanks to the other posters with functioning neurons (Phil_MCR, aSwissintheUS).

My question was out of curiosity, nothing more. My intention is not to become an activist tenant.

That being said, having signed and drafted contracts in the past, I am fully aware that plenty have clauses which are invalid. And having rented apartments in other countries of the world before, I must say that I have never come across the requirement of having insurance.

Hence the question.

I will try to post the original clause (in French) as soon as possible.

Many thanks again to the helpful posters.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06.07.2012, 15:39
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 996
Groaned at 130 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 812 Times in 433 Posts
EPMike has a reputation beyond reputeEPMike has a reputation beyond reputeEPMike has a reputation beyond reputeEPMike has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RC-Menage/Liability insurance

Quote:
View Post
Whatever works for you....

Just pointing out that the fact that you have something in writing, does not make it legal.

It's my understanding that the only mandatory insurance in Switzerland is health insurance, and fire insurance.

Hence the question whether one can legally make a tenant take on other insurance.
Com' on man!!! Contractually agreeing to taking liability insurance does not break any law. Therefore such a clause IS LEGAL! End of story. If in an expensive country as CH one has to explain why you ned liability insurance, then it is toooo late.

Just one example: let's say you go jogging and by accident you run over a person, he falls down, breaks 2 teeth and needs implants. How much do you think this will cost you (including payment of moral damages for the pain caused)?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Professional Indemnity Insurance & Public Liability Insurance Juliette*J Insurance 10 29.06.2016 21:10
Personal liability insurance djardo Housing in general 1 11.02.2011 01:10
Where to get Renters insurance / personal liability insurance axelino Insurance 7 04.01.2011 01:27
RC menage insurance in Lausanne pbochukova Housing in general 1 12.09.2010 11:31
RC - Resp.Civile [Liability insurance] sergneri Insurance 4 16.03.2010 23:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0