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Old 22.09.2012, 02:38
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CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

This was planned for 2014. While lobbying groups and local politicians are currently trying to get this repealed, the french government seems to be willing to enforce this as soon as next January.

Bad news for frontaliers, if this becomes a reality....


http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/france-vois...story/19348563
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cmu-mandatory-frontaliers-early-jan-2013-borderins.jpg   cmu-mandatory-frontaliers-early-jan-2013-frontaliers.png  

Last edited by jrspet; 22.09.2012 at 02:43. Reason: Added a screenshot and snippet
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Old 22.09.2012, 10:27
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

This article is a bit misleading.

A friend of mine living in France explained this to me some days ago... doesn't seem to be that dramatic.

Frontaliers will certainly continue to have the possibility to opt out the swiss insurance system (LAMAL), which is the default, and to take insurance in France. But their insurance choices in France will be reduced.

* If Frontaliers chose to stay with the swiss LAMAL, no change, they continue with swiss insurance.

* If Frontaliers take insurance in France, they had two choices to far: the state social insurance system (CMU) or a private insurer. Private insurers were offering rates which are far more interesting than CMU or LAMAL, therefore most Frontaliers are with a private french insurance. However, from 2014 on, french private insurance won't be a possibility (and this was known since 10y ago). The goverment wants to move this date to 2013.

In principle, the choice between the french and swiss systems is done when you take up employment in Switzerland, and for the duration of the employment contract. But apparently there are many cases who have anticipated the 2014 deadline and successfully moved from a french private insurances to the swiss insurance. There are also tricks, such as giving an address in Switzerland etc to get to chose again.
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Old 22.09.2012, 10:48
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

It looks like two big changes will finally become reality

http://www.lesechos.fr/economie-poli...die-363750.php

1) Frontaliers resident in France will no longer be able to have private health insurance. They must either join the Swiss system (LAMAL) or the French State system (CMU).
2) The contribution to the CMU will rise from 8% of salary to 13.5%. Ouch.

So, having a fictitious address in Switzerland, as suggested in the last post, gets you into the Swiss state system and out of the French one. Which may be a gain financially, but is not convenient when you want to pop down to your local GP for some antibiotics for your baby. Apart from its illegality, it doesn't seem a great idea to me.

Personally I've been in the French state system for years, so I won't have that shock. However the steep hike in contributions is going to hurt. Those forced to switch from French private insurance to the French state system are really going to feel the pain.

I think I have this straight, but the situation is complex, so I'll be interested to hear other opinions.

Last edited by FrankZappa; 22.09.2012 at 10:49. Reason: Spelling
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Old 22.09.2012, 11:20
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

As I was told, the trick is to claim a ficticious primary residence in CH for some time only to be able to regain choice of insurance, and put back your primary residence address to France once the insurance change is done. Yes, a trick limited in time, but many (most?) Swiss frontaliers do something similar by never registering their primary address in France (and thus retaining swiss unemployment insurance etc)

With a swiss insurance for frontaliers you can go to a GP in Switzerland and France, I thought.

But there must be many real frontaliers in this forum I guess who can shed some light on this?
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Old 24.09.2012, 18:27
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

With this increase in health insurance plus no unemployment benefits from CH AVS, surely means that the financial case for being a Frontalier will be questionable. Any thoughts?
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Old 24.09.2012, 20:45
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

As far as I understand French frontaliers have been minting money for years on a variety of schemes, the best one being to be paid in Switzerland to spend your money in France (except for gas/petrol that they would buy in Switzerland). Until recently, they could cash their juicy Pillar II with no taxes whatsoever in France. I now learn that unlike the rest of the world, they could go for private insurance inbetween two countries who have a mandatory publicone.

I understand too that they support the economy of a couple of French departments, which probably gives them some clout in the National Assembly.

Apart from that, they ought to be taxed like the rest of us, actually more if they make more money.
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Old 24.09.2012, 20:54
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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With this increase in health insurance plus no unemployment benefits from CH AVS, surely means that the financial case for being a Frontalier will be questionable. Any thoughts?
Yep. The balance has certainly shifted. Switzerland will be much less of a gold mine for the french frontalier.

Apparently, I have to correct my previous post. My excuse is that I've never lived in Switzerland....

Indeed LAMAL does allow free choice of cross-border medical treatment, whereas the French State System only allows it in the same way as you can get medical tretament on holiday abroad, i.e. exceptionally.

So the smart trick for Swiss living in France is to do as the previous poster said: get a fictitious address and pretend to live there for at least 45 days a year so that you can get a B permit. Then you are not a Frontalier at all.
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Old 25.09.2012, 00:00
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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I understand too that they support the economy of a couple of French departments, which probably gives them some clout in the National Assembly.
Not really. Frontaliers are mainly unloved by both the French & the Swiss. They bring very little tax into France, since they pay income tax in Switzerland. Any political clout that they might have had under Sarkozy is gone under Hollande, as the vote in these areas is solid right wing. In any case, their influence is quite local. Annecy, only 35 kilometers from Geneva, is a town that looks almost exclusively towards Paris.

On the other hand, if the supply of French nurses and workers in the Social services decreases due to these changes, the Swiss will feel the change too.
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Old 25.09.2012, 01:14
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

This is all very interesting. Does anyone know if Alsace is affected, as I know there are some interesting differences here regarding insurance, compared to the rest of France? Thanks
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Old 25.09.2012, 10:17
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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So the smart trick for Swiss living in France is to do as the previous poster said: get a fictitious address and pretend to live there for at least 45 days a year so that you can get a B permit. Then you are not a Frontalier at all.
Not exactly - if you are on french insurance you need to regain choice by either changin job or changing your domicile to CH (even if ficticious) for 3 months, then revert back to France on a frontalier permit.

if you are frontalier on swiss insurance nothing changes.

It seems new frontaliers or swiss newly moving to France are mostly requesting swiss insurance now, so they're not affected by the upcoming change.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:22
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

This means that since they will be changing the legislation, that one* can change to LAmal and the swiss authorities will accept it ????

I've seen that for example when big changes in primes change, that the swiss gov lets you change insurance.

*someone that was with a private insurance in france

for somenoe living in Pay de Gex is kind of difficult to depend only on the french system, we don't have enought doctors to start ( and this is the present situation... lets seew hat will happen once the majority of frontaliers change to the french system).
second we need to cross geneva to go to an hospital, or we need to go to annecy, etc.

and by the way, if there are so many frontaliers is because of the lack of renting opportunities in switzerland. no one likes to spend 1h per day in traffic.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:35
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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....and by the way, if there are so many frontaliers is because of the lack of renting opportunities in switzerland. no one likes to spend 1h per day in traffic.
It is a trade off based on PITA commuting vs. cost of accommodation.

You can't have it both ways.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:39
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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Not really. Frontaliers are mainly unloved by both the French & the Swiss. They bring very little tax into France, since they pay income tax in Switzerland..
That depends on the area, France loves the Basel frontaliers, as we pay tax in France.

According to today's newspaper, we're safe for another year.
http://www.lalsace.fr/actualite/2012/10/01/droit-d-option-maintenu-pour-les-frontaliers-le-gouvernement-recule-qkpa
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:01
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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It is a trade off based on PITA commuting vs. cost of accommodation.

You can't have it both ways.
In Geneva it's so hard to find an apartment on the rental market, so often people have no other choice. I'm sure many frontaliers would prefer to live in Geneva.
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Old 27.11.2012, 12:22
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Re: CMU mandatory for frontaliers as early as Jan 2013?

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In Geneva it's so hard to find an apartment on the rental market, so often people have no other choice. I'm sure many frontaliers would prefer to live in Geneva.
Absolutely. We've been looking since we've arrived in May (applied for 40 apartments - which along with a new job is quite time-consuming) and have come up empty-handed. NOTHING. We have no choice but to go to France and having a toddler means this whole health-insurance issue is of concern. I'm very curious about dropping my LAMAL too, since it would on paper save us about 500 CHF a month (but this depends on how much we'd be taxed on the french side...)
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