Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Insurance  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21.11.2016, 08:23
Pixie B's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: SZ
Posts: 1,037
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 842 Times in 348 Posts
Pixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond repute
Health insurance, legal advice

Earlier this year, I think in January or February; I had a call from someone who said he was from CSS health insurance (who we are insured with) offering to help save money etc...

Since then I have had so many of these calls again, the first one only about a week after this first person called; and I have realised that these people are not actually trying to help at all and nor are they from the current insurers like they make out to be.

At the time I was unaware of this and completely fell for it, I have received documents last month confirming that new policies will start in January. And they are costing a lot more than what we are currently paying!

I called the new insurer and the person I spoke to said they have had a lot of problems with these brokers and she asked me to write a letter requesting to cancel the policy.

So I did that, but I received a reply stating that they were declining my request, based on the documents signed being clear and it being past 7 days since I signed.

When I signed the documents I didn't understand them as they were all in German and my vocabulary doesn't cover anything legal or insurance related, so I had asked the broker to explain to me what I was signing for and it seems he completely lied!

He assured me that he was from CSS, he was merely making amendments to the policy and that he had added something on which he claimed was essential, but also removing something else which was unnecessary therefore offsetting the extra cost of the thing he added on...

I asked about the logo on the document and he said it was not a new policy

Now I realise this is not the case I feel like I have been scammed and taken advantage of.

And I want to cancel this policy which is due to start in January.

What must I do next? How should I contest this? What would happen if I simply refused to pay?

Thanks in advance for your advice!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21.11.2016, 08:38
John_H
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

You have legal insurance ? (not purchased from a cold caller) .. Maybe you could chase the broker, highly unlikely you'd win, they'd just say you should have read the contract before signing it.

Sounds like it's probably a legitimate contract with the insurer, you were simply scammed by the broker who has made their commission already and is now laughing at you and all the others while drinking champagne and eating swan burgers.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21.11.2016, 08:50
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,314
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,347 Times in 9,733 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

If you refuse to pay you could end up being issued a debt notice from the insurance company which could affect any future permit renewal.

Bite the bullet, pay up for the coming year and then cancel the policy in November 2017 for something better.

When did you do all this anyway? If it was back earlier in the year isn't that illegal? I thought you could only change your policy in November or if your premiums went up a lot?
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Medea Fleecestealer for this post:
  #4  
Old 21.11.2016, 08:58
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Read Art. 23, Art. 24 and also Art.28 of the Code of Obligations
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a23

Totally fits in your case.

Write them, maybe even in English:
I entered the contract in Error, the contract is not according to my understanding and will, I only signed after willful deceit and substantial lying from the broker. According to are Art. 23 ff (specially Art. 24 and 28) Swiss Code of Obligations the contract is null and void, and I am no longer bound to it.

Also file a complaint because of fraud with the police. (Against the broker, not the insurance.)
Art. 146 Criminal Code.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a146

Just ask if you need it in German as well.
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
The following 13 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 21.11.2016, 09:08
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Without knowing what exactly you have signed, it's hard to give any specific advice. Best would be to go see a lawyer, a simple consultation is not *that* expensive. Certainly much much cheaper that what you might have to pay to this new insurance over the course of some 5 years if we're talking about a supplementary insurance here.

There is some hope for you to get out of this situation though

Art. 23 and Art 24. OR - a contract is not binding if you actually intended to conclude a different contract

Art.7 KVG, Abs. 1 & 5. - basically, double insurance is forbidden for the obligatory health insurance part. New contract should not take effect until the previous insurer confirms cancellation of your old contract to the new insurer. A couple of catches here:
1) you may have inadvertently signed and sent them cancellation letter for your previous insurer, that they'll kindly forward, or
2) the contract you've signed is for supplementary insurance.

In the case 1), maybe contact your current insurer asap to let them know that you didn't actually want to cancel them.

Last edited by ivank; 21.11.2016 at 09:18.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ivank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 21.11.2016, 09:19
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,417
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Basic insurance ("Grundversicherung"): you can still cancel this, in writing, if you hurry. You need to send a registered letter (you can create and print a form letter here, ask the post office to send it "eingeschrieben"), which has to be received by November 30.

(In fact, if your previous policy for basic insurance has NOT been cancelled by that deadline, the new one won't even be valid. But if you are not sure what papers you signed, best not to count on that. If you want to switch back, cancel the new one in writing now and contact CSS to make sure you are still properly signed up with them.)


Supplementary insurance is a different kettle of fish. Every policy comes with its own set of T&Cs: how long before it kicks in, how much notice you have to give before you can cancel it etc. So depending on what it actually says in the fine print for your new policies, you might indeed be stuck with those for however long their notice periods are. But you can definitely still change the basic insurance back to what you had.


NOTE however that some insurers give discounts for having supplementary+basic with the same company. So if the basic insurance is the same price at both companies, or nearly the same, switching that part back to CSS might wind up costing you even more. Check that out first, before you decide what to do.


Shenanigans like these are why I now refuse to talk to these insurance brokers on the phone. (best old-lady voice) "Oh, that's very kind of you, I think you should be talking to my daughter though." Then I pass the phone to my 2-year-old.
__________________
Need help? Contact a mod.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MathNut for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 21.11.2016, 09:33
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,417
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
Read Art. 23, Art. 24 and also Art.28 of the Code of Obligations
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a23

Totally fits in your case.

Write them, maybe even in English:
I entered the contract in Error, the contract is not according to my understanding and will, I only signed after willful deceit and substantial lying from the broker. According to are Art. 23 ff (specially Art. 24 and 28) Swiss Code of Obligations the contract is null and void, and I am no longer bound to it.

Also file a complaint because of fraud with the police. (Against the broker, not the insurance.)
Art. 146 Criminal Code.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a146

Just ask if you need it in German as well.
Will that actually work? I mean, I'd assume the broker will deny misrepresenting anything, claim he explained exactly what the contracts were about and that he only said he was "authorized to offer contracts with" CSS rather than employed by them etc. etc.

Assuming neither party had a tape recorder running, how is that likely to play out?

Don't get me wrong, I reckon it's worth a try... think I'd still switch the basic insurance back via plain old boring registered letter though, before the deadline for that passes.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21.11.2016, 09:37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
Will that actually work? I mean, I'd assume the broker will deny misrepresenting anything, claim he explained exactly what the contracts were about and that he only said he was "authorized to offer contracts with" CSS rather than employed by them etc. etc.

Assuming neither party had a tape recorder running, how is that likely to play out?

Don't get me wrong, I reckon it's worth a try... think I'd still switch the basic insurance back via plain old boring registered letter though, since the deadline for that has not passed yet.
From Pixie B's original post, it sounds like she agreed to something there and then on the phone then they made the changes and sent her the documents. It might be worth chasing that angle and maybe claim pressure sales or, if it was in German, they took advantage of her as she's not a native speaker.

Either way, it's a shitty trick.

I'm not sure if I'm 100% correct here but I recall that cold calling to flog supplementary insurance is not allowed so it is likely the basic insurance which has been changed.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 21.11.2016, 10:50
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
Basic insurance ("Grundversicherung"): you can still cancel this, in writing, if you hurry. You need to send a registered letter (you can create and print a form letter here, ask the post office to send it "eingeschrieben"), which has to be received by November 30.
This one would not work for a new insurance. The November 30 deadline is only for existing basic insurances. Next possible cancellation date would be March 31, for a change on June 30.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 21.11.2016, 10:57
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
Will that actually work? I mean, I'd assume the broker will deny misrepresenting anything, claim he explained exactly what the contracts were about and that he only said he was "authorized to offer contracts with" CSS rather than employed by them etc. etc.
Work? In a court, in front of a judge? There is a German saying: On open sea and in a court room you are in god's hand. So even if I were a lawyer I could not give you any guarantee it would work. But considering, it is known tactic (not the cancellation but the misselling of health insurance) I would say it may work. As it is the only chance Pixie has it is really worth a try. Better than nothing.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 21.11.2016, 19:16
Pixie B's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: SZ
Posts: 1,037
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 842 Times in 348 Posts
Pixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Once again English forum has been super useful, thank you all for your help!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 21.11.2016, 19:29
Pixie B's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: SZ
Posts: 1,037
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 842 Times in 348 Posts
Pixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

By the way, I have had another call today from another broker. They're getting tiresome now! Where do they even get my contact details from?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 21.11.2016, 20:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,378
Groaned at 499 Times in 370 Posts
Thanked 12,471 Times in 6,471 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
This one would not work for a new insurance. Next possible cancellation date would be March 31, for a change on June 30.
... and only if Pixie is on minimum deductible of 230.-

I think there are multiple issues to be considered here that make for a complex case:
i) the existing insurance will be payable next year unless cancelled by Nov 30. They won't let her go unless they get confirmation by the new fraudulent insurance
ii) if the new fraudulent insurance isn't voided it will be payable next year
iii) if the new fraudulent insurance comes with minimum deductible it can be canceled by March 31 effective June 30, so the additional cost is "only" for 6 months
iv) it will be difficult for OP to prove she signed in error. Even if the phone call was recorded by the broker she's unlikely to get her hands on the records. So with the current setup she may end up paying both insurances.
v) Cancelling the existing policy now may give reason for the new fraudulent insurance/policy to claim that they can't let OP go lest she be uninsured, which is of course against the law so they HAVE to keep her

Yes the cat bites its own tail.

So the way I see it Pixie can
- accept the fraudulent policy, in which case she should cancel the existing one lest she will have to pay both
- contest the fraudulent policy and cancel the existing one. Cancellation may actually strengthen the fraudulent broker's case
- contest but not cancel the existing policy with the risk of paying both
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 21.11.2016, 20:49
Belgianmum's Avatar
Roastbeef & Yorkshire mod
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 13,134
Groaned at 236 Times in 198 Posts
Thanked 21,867 Times in 8,941 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
... and only if Pixie is on minimum deductible of 230.-
230.-? I didn't even know a 230 deductible existed. I thought the minimum for adults was 300.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 21.11.2016, 23:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,378
Groaned at 499 Times in 370 Posts
Thanked 12,471 Times in 6,471 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
230.-? I didn't even know a 230 deductible existed. I thought the minimum for adults was 300.
Of course you are right, typo.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07.12.2016, 01:52
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
By the way, I have had another call today from another broker. They're getting tiresome now!
SRF had an insightful story today on this topic. Here's why everyone's calling you - it pays way better than your day job! How does 30k a month sound?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank ivank for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 07.12.2016, 07:08
NotAllThere's Avatar
Mod x2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 13,831
Groaned at 245 Times in 216 Posts
Thanked 20,412 Times in 8,290 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

Quote:
View Post
By the way, I have had another call today from another broker. They're getting tiresome now! Where do they even get my contact details from?
Get a call blocker, don't answer any number withheld calls (we route those straight to answer machine).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 16.12.2016, 15:29
Pixie B's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: SZ
Posts: 1,037
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 842 Times in 348 Posts
Pixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond reputePixie B has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Health insurance, legal advice

** UPDATE **

They have agreed to cancel the policy, thanks to the information I was given on this thread, I used this to liase with them again and they have accepted this time!

I have decided that with legal shiz I am going to revert back to saying that I don't speak German, until I'm at C2 or something! And I will definitely not sign anything else unless I can understand it or I have an independent and impartial translator
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank Pixie B for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice ZurichLake Insurance 112 09.07.2015 14:29
Advice on the basic health insurance cover Jack75 Insurance 9 07.08.2012 10:07
Advice on getting [non-Swiss health] insurance accepted in canton. Godfather Insurance 2 13.12.2009 10:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0