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  #41  
Old 16.01.2018, 18:30
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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You won't find many surgeons who will e.g. remove the womb of a healthy 20 year-old woman just because the woman says she wants it. You won't find any that'll take off a healthy foot off anyone (Well you might, but they'd be way outside the law).
Actually Apotemnophilia is a real thing, and legs and arms get amputated within the rules of the law because the patient wants it and has a strong belief that it wil improve his/her life.
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  #42  
Old 16.01.2018, 18:54
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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No, often they are not, in our situation it was already clear months before the birth that a c-section would be the best option for mother and child.
'Best option' isn't really elective surgery, rather it is medically indicated.

OP is asking about non-medically indicated surgery.

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  #43  
Old 16.01.2018, 19:30
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Anyway, this is the kind of judgement that the OP was asking to avoid. Happy to take blame for getting carried away which might have escalated things
You did not, so no worries. Normal day on EF

Besides, it is always fun to see guys here arguing over ways to give birth. I actually think - the meds/insurrance/natural/csec births issues aside - having the right and robust support and advocacy at the right time and place can assure the most ideal outcome for a woman and baby. Somebody, who will not let the system overmedicate her (and expose her to high risk of interventions) or be pushed around at the weakest moment for whatever reason. Been there, got the wonderful emergency csec t-shirt. So, having somebody reliable by your side, who knows what to do, what you need and what you wish, is probably the best (no matter what kind of birth). The rest usually falls in its place.
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  #44  
Old 16.01.2018, 20:06
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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How on earth can one compare taking off a foot with a c-section??
You misunderstand. I wasn't comparing them. I was tackling the ridiculous statement that a women has the right to have any medical procedure whatsoever performed on them at whim. Which is what you did with

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Whichever part of her body women is ready to put at risk of damage should be her personal choice.
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And really, why can't we just accept that both vaginal birth and c-section are risky?
Not the case. Neither are pariticularly risky nowadays. It seems to me that c-section is more risky. But both are low risk.

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We are all paying out of our own pockets in Switzerland.
Er... no we're not. Basic health care is subsidised. Once you've exceeded your excess, the cost of any surgery is paid via the premiums we all pay.

The facts are: c-section overall is more risky than normal birth. There's no reason to fear either, and no reason to feel bad about choosing either. It seems nowadays people object to facts that make them feel bad.
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  #45  
Old 16.01.2018, 20:40
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

Well, my c-section incl. hospital stay costed around 4k chf which equalls my 10 monthly installments. And as stated above, I subsidise more "lifestyle" choices, most of them way more expensive. Besides, Swiss healthcare seems to agree that elective cesarean is an alternative to natural birth - insurance companies are paying, doctors are willing to perform one and some hospitals do more c-sections than natural births, even those not accepting high-risk patients (Bethesda in Basel). And yes, both ways are safe in a sense of low mortality, but pregnancy and birth remains a risky business... for both mother and babies. sure, there is no comparison to the old times but you can't be sure to remain healthy and have unproblematic birth even here and with all money of the world.
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  #46  
Old 17.01.2018, 23:45
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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'Best option' isn't really elective surgery, rather it is medically indicated.
Doesn't need to be.

My best option could be a choice based on statistics and my personal situation and preferences. Let's say at my age and BMI my odds of succesfully having an uncomplicated first vaginal birth in hospital are less than 1:4. (which is fully my own fault due to my lifestyle choices ). I know an elective CS at term will not carry more risk for my baby than an uncomplicated vaginal birth, but an emergency CS or instrumental birth will. Because I have neither time left nor wish to have a big family, I am willing to accept a higher risk for me and choose a CS without 'real' medical indication. Or, because experiencing birth as nature intended is important for me, I want more children, I am willing to try and beat the odds as the safest option for both of us and future pregnancies is still a possibility. Maybe I choose to give birth at home to lower the odds of ending up with a CS, while accepting the higher risk for both me & baby. Now, which is the best option? Which is the safest for mom and current & future babies? Which is the 'lifestyle choice'?

Before my daughter was born I was not really aware of the odds, even if I would have been I would have been convinced I can beat them through meticulous preparation and a positive attitude . I heavily judged options 1 and 3. Now, older and wiser, I understand I was delusional and that people make different choices looking at the same situation because of different values and experiences.
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  #47  
Old 18.01.2018, 08:18
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Doesn't need to be.

My best option could be a choice based on statistics and my personal situation and preferences. Let's say at my age and BMI my odds of succesfully having an uncomplicated first vaginal birth in hospital are less than 1:4. (which is fully my own fault due to my lifestyle choices ). I know an elective CS at term will not carry more risk for my baby than an uncomplicated vaginal birth, but an emergency CS or instrumental birth will. Because I have neither time left nor wish to have a big family, I am willing to accept a higher risk for me and choose a CS without 'real' medical indication. Or, because experiencing birth as nature intended is important for me, I want more children, I am willing to try and beat the odds as the safest option for both of us and future pregnancies is still a possibility. Maybe I choose to give birth at home to lower the odds of ending up with a CS, while accepting the higher risk for both me & baby. Now, which is the best option? Which is the safest for mom and current & future babies? Which is the 'lifestyle choice'?

Before my daughter was born I was not really aware of the odds, even if I would have been I would have been convinced I can beat them through meticulous preparation and a positive attitude . I heavily judged options 1 and 3. Now, older and wiser, I understand I was delusional and that people make different choices looking at the same situation because of different values and experiences.
Most women I know, who had a C-section, didn't really decide long before. It was either an emergency C-section, after hours and hours of labour that went wrong, putting the baby (and the mother) in danger, or a C-section decided in the last weeks of pregnancy, after consultations with their gyn.
But I digress. What I personally find totally uncool is to shame women for whatever decision and outcome. Especially coming from men.
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  #48  
Old 18.01.2018, 10:55
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Most women I know, who had a C-section, didn't really decide long before. It was either an emergency C-section, after hours and hours of labour that went wrong, putting the baby (and the mother) in danger, or a C-section decided in the last weeks of pregnancy, after consultations with their gyn.
But I digress. What I personally find totally uncool is to shame women for whatever decision and outcome. Especially coming from men.
Most C-sections are lifestyle choices and not medically necessary. Non profit motivated professionals recommend one type of delivery over the other.

Shutting down discussion on basis of gender is uncool.

Whether such discussion will have any influence on a mother confronting the enormity of childbirth is sort of the point of the thread but I‘d be surprised if it did. There‘s no hating in this online discussion but good luck as a man in real life trying to join in such a talk: the daggers! All the best.
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  #49  
Old 18.01.2018, 11:20
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Most C-sections are lifestyle choices and not medically necessary. Non profit motivated professionals recommend one type of delivery over the other.

Shutting down discussion on basis of gender is uncool.

Whether such discussion will have any influence on a mother confronting the enormity of childbirth is sort of the point of the thread but I‘d be surprised if it did. There‘s no hating in this online discussion but good luck as a man in real life trying to join in such a talk: the daggers! All the best.
Frankly, I have no idea if your first statement is accurate. It does have a higher incidence today, that I know. However, I am sure that if it was as equally easy and risk free a procedure before, as it is today (relatively speaking), it would have been much more often recommended. Take the breech babies for instance. Many women gave birth naturally even under these circumstances a few decades ago. Or monitoring baby's heart beats and discovering they're in a risky situation after hours of unfruitful labour.

I don't want to shut down the discussion as in principle I am neither in favour of C-section, nor against it. However, I don't like when people feel so free to judge...Anyway, I can imagine a man is in a potentially "dangerous" position in real life discussions on this theme! I apologise if I sounded sexist. Hope people will take the best and the most informed decision, we can all agree on this one.

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Old 18.01.2018, 11:47
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

I really love this forum. Comparing to other online platforms, exchanging the opinions still come in a normal way

I think I have nothing more value to add to the already discussed matter, but for me as a closure, I would say every woman decides the way they think it is the best for them and their baby. Like in case of vaccination discussions.

Oh, and reading your comments reminds me that I still have a lot of English words and expressions to catch up with
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  #51  
Old 18.01.2018, 11:50
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

I heard this on the radio yesterday but the only article I could find through a search quickly was from the Daily Mail so sorry for that.

This is in response to the poster that said that nurses were pro natural births as opposed to C-section ones as it kept them in jobs which I found quite disturbing.

It's the result of a trial of using bi-carbonate of soda to reduce placenta fluid acid and so enabling some women to give birth naturally rather than having a C-section.

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Speaking on the BBC's Today show this morning, study author Professor Susan Wray* from the University of Liverpool explained bicarb neutralises acids in the uterus, which increases women's likelihood of giving birth vaginally.

The bicarbonate used is the standard type available in supermarkets.

Around one-in-four births in the UK is carried out via c-section. Although usually safe, the procedure can cause blood clots, excessive bleeding and womb infections
Here


* The professor managing the research was a women (for the benefit of Greenmount).
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Old 18.01.2018, 11:56
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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* The professor managing the research was a women (for the benefit of Greenmount).
Lol
Please don't attribute me any more opinions and intentions than a rather delicate attempt to stop people from being judgemental with women's decisions. The gender of a researcher is neither here, nor there. I didn't even imply anything of the sort.

Yes, as OP mentioned, people read different studies, opinions, discussions and make up their own mind. Is that so difficult to accept? I guess it is for some.
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  #53  
Old 18.01.2018, 12:01
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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...I apologise if I sounded sexist....
Yeah... did a bit.

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I would say every woman decides the way they think it is the best for them and their baby. Like in case of vaccination discussions.
At which point, a small fight broke out.
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  #54  
Old 18.01.2018, 12:05
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Er... no we're not. Basic health care is subsidised. Once you've exceeded your excess, the cost of any surgery is paid via the premiums we all pay.
Most years my premiums still add up to more than my medical costs (including my excess and co-pay) so I am paying for my healthcare with my premiums and a bit extra for the pot. I don't mind because one year I had to have abdominal surgery and it was a little over (overall, the insurance company is quids in, as if you take off the excess and co-pay, I was pretty much slightly under). Who know, this year I might go well over.... That's what insurance is. It's two bets, I'm betting that I will need a lot of medical care, and the insurance company is betting I wont. They have actuaries, I have bills, we all get the care we need, and no-one goes bankrupt. (Especially the insurance companies).
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Old 18.01.2018, 12:05
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Yes, as OP mentioned, people read different studies, opinions, discussions and make up their own mind. Is that so difficult to accept? I guess it is for some.
I disagree. Because of people reading s**t on the web, we have people on stupid and dangerous diets, taking homeopathic junk and so on.

It would be better if they read peer-reviewed scientific papers (or summarys of them) rather than Hello magazine. (a bit OTT to make a point).
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Old 18.01.2018, 12:08
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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I disagree. Because of people reading s**t on the web, we have people on stupid and dangerous diets, taking homeopathic junk and so on.

It would be better if they read peer-reviewed scientific papers (or summarys of them) rather than Hello magazine. (a bit OTT to make a point).
Even then some people cherry pick the peer-reviewed science to backup their pre-existing opinions.
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Old 18.01.2018, 12:09
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Most C-sections are lifestyle choices and not medically necessary. Non profit motivated professionals recommend one type of delivery over the other.


That is BS. Women and babies used to die all the time in childbirth. I'm certain my son would not have lived or would be disabled if not for modern medicine and the emergency c section I received.

Until men can give birth, they should keep their opinions regarding childbirth to themselves. They really have no idea.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 18.01.2018 at 21:48. Reason: fixed quote; take care not to remove HTML tags when quoting
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  #58  
Old 18.01.2018, 12:15
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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This is in response to the poster that said that nurses were pro natural births as opposed to C-section ones as it kept them in jobs which I found quite disturbing.
I said midwives, as a profession, have a personal stake in promoting natural births. Which is a fact as they can't do non-natural births. Why is that disturbing, while saying ob/gyns promote elective CS for money and time around golf is totally OK? The difference is ob/gyns would not be out of work if they would stop attending births.

But what has that statement to do with this information? This (yay! female!) Professor is a medical scientist who found a simple method could help a suboptimally contracting uterus, an important cause for performing an emergency CS. That is fantastic news, especially for women in countries where no emergency CS is available, but would improve the odds for a succesful vaginal birth everywhere. Bless her
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Old 18.01.2018, 12:17
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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That is BS. Women and babies used to die all the time in childbirth. I'm certain my son would not have lived or would be disabled if not for modern medicine and the emergency c section I received.

Until men can give birth, they should keep their opinions regarding childbirth to themselves. They really have no idea.
I refer you to the previous posts where C-sections are described as emergency operations. Nobody is attacking you, there's no BS.

Please provide a list of other topics on which a particular gender may not comment so we know where we stand.
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Old 18.01.2018, 13:34
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Re: I would like to select C-section without exact medical reasons. Will it be covere

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Most C-sections are lifestyle choices and not medically necessary.
Show me the data. I assume you are talking about the magical WHO 10-15% 'optimal rate' which would make 'most C-sections in CH unnecessary'. It has been debunked.

It is closer to 20% for lowest maternal & neonatal mortality, while higher CS rates do not necesarilly lead to higher mortality:



This is per 100.000 births

and



from here

This number does not include brain damaged babies. So I agree with BS.
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