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  #61  
Old 18.05.2018, 18:31
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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my example was from Generali. 35y non smoker.
Hmm, I can get it only for up to 20 years and than it will be more like CHF 600/y
https://www.generali.ch/privatkunden...llversicherung
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  #62  
Old 18.05.2018, 18:35
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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On the exact date of your retirement S&P might be at ZERO.
Your 3a plan (the one referred to) is gauranteed.
In a situation where S&P 500 is at zero the likelihood that the insurance company still exists is also close to zero. Or if it exists the payout might buy you an apple. If you are fast. You might get only half an apple in the afternoon, and a quarter the next day.
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Old 18.05.2018, 18:42
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

And if we play doomsday scenario, lets play it straight to the end.

At the given plan the yearly premium will always be what the federal council defines as the max possible tax free pillar 3a contribution. Now this could be CHF 500'000 (which means 12M will be the new EF poverty line). But the guaranteed payout at maturity is still only CHF 170'822 !
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Old 19.05.2018, 00:18
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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On the exact date of your retirement S&P might be at ZERO.
Your 3a plan (the one referred to) is gauranteed. If you never withdraw money out of stock market, you never technically loose it (other than on paper). With this on the day of the 27th year, he has a defined benefit which is not subject to whatever the market is doing.
That is a minor difference.

You only find out if it was a good decision or not retrospectively.
You need to study "a bit" more.
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Old 22.05.2018, 16:16
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

Dear OP,

The attached image shows the worst case scenario.

If S&P goes belly up (and any insurance benefits), you will still be better off with tax benefits because the government gives you anyway. i.e. You wont be worse off. And that is what this insurance company is underwriting.

Now there are some that believe that S&P will give a guaranteed return of 25%. Sure, if you are so confident about their advice, maybe you can ask them to underwrite (guarantee) their words. Maybe you can invest with them.

Say in 15 yrs, the insured has an accident and dies. This policy (you need to check with AXA) will give you the assured bonus as of that date. But if on that date, your survivor needs to take money out of S&P 500 and it is not doing so well, you could loose even your principal and forget about returns.

Anyway, this investment is a type of instrument. You need to spread your investments in a variety of instruments.

Good luck in whatever you do.
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Old 22.05.2018, 16:28
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

Did you just waste all that time to make a table to illustrate that in the very likely scenario that ALL THE US INDUSTRY is wiped out you would be better off paying into a 3a???



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Dear OP,

The attached image shows the worst case scenario.

If S&P goes belly up (and any insurance benefits), you will still be better off with tax benefits because the government gives you anyway. i.e. You wont be worse off. And that is what this insurance company is underwriting.

Now there are some that believe that S&P will give a guaranteed return of 25%. Sure, if you are so confident about their advice, maybe you can ask them to underwrite (guarantee) their words. Maybe you can invest with them.

Say in 15 yrs, the insured has an accident and dies. This policy (you need to check with AXA) will give you the assured bonus as of that date. But if on that date, your survivor needs to take money out of S&P 500 and it is not doing so well, you could loose even your principal and forget about returns.

Anyway, this investment is a type of instrument. You need to spread your investments in a variety of instruments.

Good luck in whatever you do.
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Old 22.05.2018, 17:25
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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If S&P goes belly up (and any insurance benefits), you will still be better off with tax benefits because the government gives you anyway. i.e. You wont be worse off. And that is what this insurance company is underwriting.
Here the flaws in you calculation: You do not invest the same amount in a non-pillar 3a scheme as in a pillar 3a one. One would invest the pillar 3a amount minus the potential tax benefit into the non-pillar 3a. If both go belly up the total loss is exactly the same and none is the better.

The bonus of the AXA plan can be zero. This means the payout will be less than what you put in.

Pillar 3a has a hidden capital gains tax. The better it performs the more tax you will pay at maturity. That is why you should treat pillar 3a as cash savings and use vehicles with potential high capital growth outside of pillar 3a as there is no capital gains tax in Switzerland.

As the AXA plan is a single plan and account it misses the staggered payout option with which you can lower the payout tax.
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Old 22.05.2018, 17:28
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

If the S&P goes to zero, I will happily buy the entire market for less than $1 & own 500 business's.


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Dear OP,

The attached image shows the worst case scenario.

If S&P goes belly up (and any insurance benefits), you will still be better off with tax benefits because the government gives you anyway. i.e. You wont be worse off. And that is what this insurance company is underwriting.

Now there are some that believe that S&P will give a guaranteed return of 25%. Sure, if you are so confident about their advice, maybe you can ask them to underwrite (guarantee) their words. Maybe you can invest with them.

Say in 15 yrs, the insured has an accident and dies. This policy (you need to check with AXA) will give you the assured bonus as of that date. But if on that date, your survivor needs to take money out of S&P 500 and it is not doing so well, you could loose even your principal and forget about returns.

Anyway, this investment is a type of instrument. You need to spread your investments in a variety of instruments.

Good luck in whatever you do.
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  #69  
Old 22.05.2018, 18:07
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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If the S&P goes to zero, I will happily buy the entire market for less than $1 & own 500 business's.
I see five scenarios where this might be the case:

Eruption of Yellowstone Super Volcano,
Global Thermonuclear War,
An Oort Cloud Visitor Leaving an Lasting Impression,
AI Singularity,
and
Mars Attacks!

In case of the later you can have all my shares for a Slim Whitman record.
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Old 22.05.2018, 18:11
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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Did you just waste all that time to make a table to illustrate that in the very likely scenario that ALL THE US INDUSTRY is wiped out you would be better off paying into a 3a???
well he has a point. if the whole US industry is wiped out, the insurance company would also be wiped out so you get nothing from there... but you did pay into the 3a, so you did get the tax benefit.

although in that case, you might as well have paid into a cash 3a...
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Old 23.05.2018, 21:49
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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well he has a point. if the whole US industry is wiped out, the insurance company would also be wiped out so you get nothing from there... but you did pay into the 3a, so you did get the tax benefit.

although in that case, you might as well have paid into a cash 3a...


Com' on Phil. Usually your posts are better thought out. As pointed out above already, the tax benefit for 3a payments is not money that you get. It is NOT like you are left with more money as compared to not having paid into the 3a in the first place.

e.g. Whether you pay for x years 6800 into a 3a or 6800 (1-marg tax rate), if both are wiped out, you end up with nothing for both.
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Old 25.05.2018, 10:20
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

Good morning everyone.

Thanks a lot for all the inputs, opinions and tips provided so far.

As mentioned in my last post, I received 2 letters from Axa yesterday. They are attached.

The first letter shows the surrender value of the policy as of date 01 June 2018. It is CHF 1,122.

The second letter shows the surrender value of the policy as of date 01 Nov 2018. It is CHF 3,732.

My proposed next step would be to send a registered letter to Axa informing them that I wish to cancel the policy with effect from 01 or 02 Nov 2018 (I will confirm the exact date after speaking with the Axa agent today, in order to get the higher amount).

I will try to see if I can get the full refund (unlikely).

Based on the attached letters, please provide your advice on whether the above would be the best way to approach or there could be an alternate way.

Thanks again for your time and effort in reading and replying to this.
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File Type: jpg Surrender_01_June_2018_resize.jpg (94.9 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg Surrender_01_Nov_2018_resize.jpg (92.0 KB, 71 views)
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  #73  
Old 25.05.2018, 11:48
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

So reading through these posts again.. Trying to get my head around it.. (difficult since i'm just a simple techie).

I don't want tied to a 25 year deal which pays out less than was paid in
I don't need insurance since i already have it
I want to get the tax benefit
I want to be able stop paying and not lose everything
I want to be able to use it to fund property if i wanted to


I need a 3a savings account like this ?
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  #74  
Old 25.05.2018, 23:00
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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Com' on Phil. Usually your posts are better thought out. .
In being consistent with who he is, there is a high chance he chose to go with with facts and numbers. A calm mind and cold calculations even if slow and deliberate have a special place in rational analysis.

Oh well.
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  #75  
Old 28.05.2018, 17:38
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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So reading through these posts again.. Trying to get my head around it.. (difficult since i'm just a simple techie).

I don't want tied to a 25 year deal which pays out less than was paid in
I don't need insurance since i already have it
I want to get the tax benefit
I want to be able stop paying and not lose everything
I want to be able to use it to fund property if i wanted to


I need a 3a savings account like this ?
Basically make sure you go with a bank-based account-based 3a (can still be share-based rather than cash savings) that you can move to another provider at any time and can vary your payments in. Don't tie yourself into an insurance-based solution with fixed payments in over a long contract.
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  #76  
Old 29.05.2018, 13:32
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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The first letter shows the surrender value of the policy as of date 01 June 2018. It is CHF 1,122.

The second letter shows the surrender value of the policy as of date 01 Nov 2018. It is CHF 3,732.
When is what amount due from you? Make sure you don't accrue an additional liability by waiting to cancel until November.

For example, if by cancellng in November you were due an additional half year's payment, you'd be down an additional 800CHF (3400 additonal payment due less 2600 increase in NPV). This is just an example.

Notice periods allowing, you may have to send the notice no later than tomorrow, registered mail strongly suggested in this case, if you wanted the contract to end by June.
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Old 30.05.2018, 15:23
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

After all the very useful tips/opinions given so far, I had a discussion with the Axa agent yesterday, sent him an email with the summary and obtained the following confirmation from him. I have copied the email below.


"
As per our discussion, please find below the summary. Please correct or add your points in case if required.


As I mentioned earlier, I am holding the Axa policy no. XXX. I have paid 2 annual premiums till now, CHF 6,768 in 2016 and CHF 6,768 in 2017.
I would like to cancel this policy and not pay any further premiums as I wasn’t aware when I bought this policy, that the surrender value of the policy is less than the amount of premiums that I have paid in
From our discussion over the past week, I have the following 3 options:
  1. Completely cancel the policy effective 1st Nov 2018. The registered cancellation letter should reach Axa latest by 15th Nov 2018. In this case, the policy would be completely cancelled and I would get back a total amount of money which is approximately CHF 4,250. This amount would be directly transferred to a Pillar 3A account with another company of my choosing.
  2. Convert the current policy into a zero-premium policy effective, for e.g. 1st Nov 2018. This means that I would not pay any further premiums than what I have already paid so far (CHF 13,536) and the new zero premium policy remains in effect beyond 2018, until the new term of the policy.
In case I want to completely cancel this zero-premium policy in, for e.g. 2020, then I will get back a total amount of money which is approximately CHF 4,250 + any applicable bonus from start of zero-premium policy to the cancellation of zero-premium policy. This amount would be transferred directly to a Pillar 3A account with another company of my choosing.
  1. Convert the current policy into a zero-premium policy effective, for e.g. 1st Nov 2018. This means that I would not pay any further premiums than what I have already paid so far (CHF 13,536) and the new zero premium policy remains in effect beyond 2018, until the new term of the policy.
In case I want to buy a house in, for e.g. 2022, then I will pledge the zero-premium policy with the bank (from whom I am taking a housing loan) and the amount of money which I will get from the zero premium policy for buying a house in, for e.g. 2022, is approximately CHF 4,250 + any applicable bonus from start of zero-premium policy to the date of pledge with the bank.
Please review the above statements and correct or add anything if required.
Please reply back with the corrections and confirmation. That will help to have a better understanding between us.
"


His reply:
"
Good morning,
Thank you for your friendly call and the mail.
Your points are correct. When you change the policy in to a premium free policy you will not have a worth of pledge. So if you give the policy to a bank after you made a premium free policy we will show only the new surrender value plus any applicable bonus. The value at point three is the same as in point two.
I wish you a good day.
"
In light of the above reply, I will be cancelling the policy effective 1st Nov 2018, using a registered letter and reference the already received official letter + official email while cancelling.
Thanks very much for your time in reading and providing any advice!
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Old 04.06.2018, 13:54
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

Bonjour,

Firstly I am sorry for you, if it wasn't explained to you that the 3ème (which should give you 25% tax saving), can only be withdrawn for:

- Buying your principle property;
- To become independent;
- Leaving CH permanently;
- Early or partial retirement;

and normally you will loose 10% upon withdrawal.

People should be given this information.

If you set it up with insurance rather than a bank, it can serve as life insurance etc, while I bank can't and won't - and they don't tell you about 3B.

3B can more dynamic, flexible and a return of 2 - 5% with 0.003% fees upon withdrawal.

People need 3A at least, or giving the set up with the 2 ème and AVS we are all cooked (40% income upon retirement due to Taux conversion).

Even if you are thinking to leave CH one day (many people do, but only 4% - I have been told - actually do) - in the meantime Swiss 3A 3B is one of the more solid options in the world and worthwhile.

Last edited by Ace1; 04.06.2018 at 14:03. Reason: Removed advertising elements
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Old 04.06.2018, 14:08
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

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and normally you will loose 10% upon withdrawal.
And in case of insurances you can lose as much as 100% !

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People should be given this information.
And you give it neither. Perfect.

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If you set it up with insurance rather than a bank, it can serve as life insurance etc, while I bank can't and won't - and they don't tell you about 3B.

3B can more dynamic, flexible and a return of 2 - 5% with 0.003% fees upon withdrawal.
Pillar 3b is anything which is not pillar 1, pillar 2, or tax preferred pillar 3a. Even cash in the pillow which has 0.0% withdraw fee (also 0% APR)
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Old 15.06.2018, 12:30
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Re: Pillar 3A insurance - how to cancel without losing everything.

Hi Guys,
I accidently saw this post and actually that was the reason to join this forum. I am working for the biggest life insurance company in Switzerland and by my experience, I can advise Las the following regarding his case:
  • First, check the offer you signed 2 years ago, if you have a detailed table, showing the value of the policy every single year in case of cancelation. In case you do not have, you can ask your company to provide you with one. In some cases, depending of the type of contract, you can withdraw up to 90% of the amount invested after the 6th year of the contract.
  • You can also ask your company to reduce the amount of the premium (in some companies the minimum is 2’100 per year). I don’t know AXA`s terms and conditions, but if you can, ask straightaway the detailed table with the amount year by year. With a simple calculation, you can see at witch moment you can cancel your contract with “minimum lost”. If you want to benefit from additional tax saving, you can create a second 3A pillar with a bank.
In general, my advice is in case you want to create an insurance 3A pillar, at the beginning select for example two or three life insurance companies, ask for an offer and then check the details with an advisor. The company’s core business in this case is the non-life insurance (automobile, home travel…) – you can find very interesting offers in the general insurance field, but less effective and less flexible conditions.
I will try to create a post with the pros and cons of a 3A bank and insurance pillar contracts.
I hope this will be useful for you.
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