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Old 04.12.2018, 13:31
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

I hear you loud and clear Doropfiz.

I have paid into the state funds since 1982.....as ya'll know I am 99% deaf now. After our personal catastrophe in 2009, I sook, several times, the help of the IV to help me find a job or retrain, as I couldn't go back to my trained job in nursing, due to the massive hearing loss.

I have NEVER applied for money, as in a pension or any such thing, just for kind of 'practical help' and items, such as hearing aids and a flashlight signalling equipment!!

In my quest of finding work with help from the IV, the only thing in the end that was granted to me was a so-called IV integration advisor....who within one year of working with him managed to send me the sum total of 4 job ads, 3 of which were not for me, as we already agreed in several talks BEFOREHAND!! (I would have had to be able to make and take phone calls/resp. interact on an immediate basis with strangers..........which I obvs can't anymore!!) and all of them jobs ads were available on the common job market and none of them, as initially promised by the IV, with special institutions and the like.

Then the IV-advisor thought it a good idea to tell me, that I am speaking slurred (those who know me IRL know that this is NOT the case, speaking like a machine gun perhaps, but certainly not slurred) he suggested to go and learn signing language. Although I get by for decades perfectly with lipreading!!

All expenses I'd have had to stump up for (try that when living below the breadline!!) , when I asked him about that, since he knew every detail of my finances....He said, I could try and claim it back from the IV after completion of the courses, tho' he said it wasn't certain that I'd get the money!

In the same vein the advice of the guy at the IV of visiting a language school/course to get a diploma to try and apply as a translator. Again, I would've had to stump up the cash and I would've needed 1:1 tuition as obvs listening to tapes/Cd's etc isn't for me.

And on and on this saga went, in the end after one year I stopped it all., the well-known attrition policy of the IV worked and I have no more fight left in me.

I am just as disillusioned as you are now with our so called social insurances.

One place although helped me a lot in Berne, I can really recommend them.
They found a loophole in the letter of the IV to me, helped me to fight to be heard, resulted in the end in that (useless) IV-integration advisor.

2 years ago, I needed new hearing aids, which due to the severity of my hearing loss are more expensive than the basic aids for which the IV pays a basic amount.

Again I applied for a grant kind of thing (Hšrtefallgesuch), it was denied...one the reasons, that with the new hearing aids I won't hear at least 10% more as a housewife (how on earth do you measure that!!!), which is one of their many criteria to meet when you are 'just' a housewife.......The reasoning, that the new aids are so much better that I have a better chance to find work, was null and void for them. You only get help if you are working already, start to work/study/school or need adaptions to your workplace.

That Beratungsstelle in Bern helped me to apply to a private fund for cases like mine and I was really very happy, that I got granted the difference in cost from them that in the end I could buy those new hearing aids.

https://www.bfsug.ch/beratungsstellen/region-bern/


There are such Beratungstellen in other Cantons as well, how good they are I can't say, but the one in Berne is really TOP!!!
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  #22  
Old 04.12.2018, 13:38
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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The issue is finding the balance and there's never going to be a system that makes everyone happy. I like the Swiss emphasis on self responsibility and far better to have a few fall through the safety net rather than the life style choice we see of social security across much of Western Europe.
Oh, then you'd agree to attract those foreigners who are able to hold jobs belonging to the 21st century for most of their working life and not keep or kick them out once they fulfil their usefulness i.e. filling up our tax coffers .... don't you, Loz? Ups, I sense a huge potential of inner conflict for Loz here....
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:04
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Oh, then you'd agree to attract those foreigners who are able to hold jobs belonging to the 21st century for most of their working life and not keep or kick them out once they fulfil their usefulness i.e. filling up our tax coffers .... don't you, Loz? Ups, I sense a huge potential of inner conflict for Loz here....
I don't understand your point? Where have I mentioned foreigners or kicking them out?
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:15
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I don't understand your point? Where have I mentioned foreigners or kicking them out?
You did not. Just seems cool to rip on you or something..
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:20
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I don't understand your point? Where have I mentioned foreigners or kicking them out?
Not here...but you mentioned something similar on a different thread a day before or so. Now, as a continuation of that argument, imagine that some people don't even need that safety net but only to be able to live here for the rest of their lives. As you put it there - they shouldn't expect anything, really.
The scary part is...you might be even right some day.

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You did not. Just seems cool to rip on you or something..
Nope, just asking him to own his opinions.
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:20
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

I know so many who are taking total advantage of the Swiss Social System- and have been for years, and years. All Swiss btw ...quite a few of them young - hate the system, Switzerland, etc, etc, but very happy to milk it.

Seems like the system is not very good at prioritizing who really needs help- and those who need a kick up the **se. Shame.
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:25
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I do not want to sound insensitive but I wholeheartedly disagree with your posts above. The state social net should be the last of the last resource you should depend on. Switzerland is a blessed country because it somewhat resisted failed ideologies popular in Euro countries such as socialism and Keynesian economics. Thanks to that the proportion of people living in poverty is very low if compared to the most rich EU countries.

The easiness in obtaining social security in the EU countries has led to a massive degeneration in salaries, employment, and the quality of healthcare and education. In many of these countries part of the young generation decided to not look for work or to continue to study because the so-called social safety net is sufficient for them.

I guess the vast majority of the "desperate" people you described have mostly made bad decisions in their life and have lived beyond their means. I bet that they are people who had nice jobs, good salaries, but chose to spend money with frivolities instead of saving money for emergency situations ("that is not going to happen to me", "let's live the life to the fullest today", etc.).

That being said, I believe that any people in need should be helped, everyone should be able to eat, sleep in a decent place, and access to health care. If someone made bad decisions in life and have no access to the state-funded social net , then charities, churches, and family are the places to look for help. I myself have worked in charity initiatives abroad and also feel everyone should donate a bit of money for such causes, whatever it is.

To conclude, the exact reason why Switzerland is a country that "works" is because it has tight rules to access the so called social security, avoiding abuses to the system, which in turn results in good quality of these services without burdening the citizens with excessive taxation.
The argument "bad decisions" is a fallacy, a lot of these people are simply unable to get on the ladder of being able to decide how wisely money is spent. Then there are others who build up, and get taken down again through no fault of their own, only to build up again and get kicked down again and again in such rapid succession until there is nothing left.
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:28
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I know so many who are taking total advantage of the Swiss Social System- and have been for years, and years. All Swiss btw ...quite a few of them young - hate the system, Switzerland, etc, etc, but very happy to milk it.

Seems like the system is not very good at prioritizing who really needs help- and those who need a kick up the **se. Shame.
It is like with schooling. The quality is theoretically there. The system is a good system. Yet it just needs quality control of the individual smallest parts. The accountability of people that affect other people's lives by their decisions.

Now - in a traditionally honor driven system that believes in bottom-up and not top-down imposed leadership...good luck imposing quality control. It should genuinely be inspired and executed by the individual social help agents..officers, teachers, etc. Then it is the best. Whether it is done or not, isn't a flaw of the system.

I think those stories of help that cannot be delivered are heartbreaking. So is realisation, that there still are far more of those who abuse the system.

Shame, I agree. But not shame on the system. On those who's abuse make it worse for those who really need the help.
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Old 04.12.2018, 14:29
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Not here...but you mentioned something similar on a different thread a day before or so. Now, as a continuation of that argument, imagine that some people don't even need that safety net but only to be able to live here for the rest of their lives. As you put it there - they shouldn't expect anything, really.
The scary part is...you might be even right some day.
What I said on the other thread echos what I wrote here. Personal responsibility means planning for the worst. You never know if you will lose your job, get sick, have an accident, have a change of circumstances whereby you have to leave the country etc. so you should make plans for it.
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Old 04.12.2018, 15:07
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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But what if you are one of those who falls through the net like a pinball without ever touching the paddles?



I guess you go down the hole then
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Old 04.12.2018, 15:20
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I guess you go down the hole then
In countries with a far wider reaching social security net than Switzerland people still fall through. As an example, there's more homeless in the UK or France than there are per head of population than in Switzerland. That suggests to me that the system works.
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Old 04.12.2018, 15:25
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I guess you go down the hole then

....or you get 'saved' by a partner, who's worth more than his weight in gold, (or an equally supporting family), who witness your struggles and saw first hand that you tried really everything humanely possible.


But I know too well, not everyone is this lucky......
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Old 04.12.2018, 16:46
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

I have no experience (thank God) with IV, Sozialhilfe or similar. During the financial crisis, admittedly a decade ago, did I twice have the honor of having to register with the RAV. Fortunately did I each time find a job and just was with them for a few weeks... which means I did all the paper work but never got anything out of them. Anyways: Was it a bureaucratic process? Sure. Was it so bad that it would drive me into a suicide? Hell no. The initial set up was a bit complicated, but the monthly effort they want from you was in my eyes far too low and invited free loaders...


I like it how Loz called social welfare a lifestyle choice in Western Europe. Hartz 4 is in Germany some 540 EUR a month (plus basic housing paid). That's not a choice and I don't know how people can live off that unless they have some illegal side business. What I have seen as a lifestyle choice though were some young expats in CH who did not exactly hurry up to find a new job once they were set up with the RAV...
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Old 04.12.2018, 19:43
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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What I said on the other thread echos what I wrote here. Personal responsibility means planning for the worst. You never know if you will lose your job, get sick, have an accident, have a change of circumstances whereby you have to leave the country etc. so you should make plans for it.
There are many people who spend their life on minimum wage.
Good, decent people, who just happen to be in industries that pay next to nothing, like carers, cleaners, hotel maids, etc, the list is endless.

These people have no opportunity to save for a rainy day, as every day is a rainy day. Throw a spanner in the works, like caring for a relative, disabled children, ill health, divorce, redundancy, accident etc, and they are derailed.

Not all people are equal, which is why fighting with RAV is taken in some people's stride, and is a soul destroying, confusing experience for others.

All that said, I fully agree that people with disposable income at the end of the month should be saving for a rainy day.
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Old 04.12.2018, 22:08
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

As someone else has said, there is support. A tuteur or curateur will help people navigate the complexities of social security.

Yes, it is demeaning to have to place yourself and your affairs in the hands of someone else.

Yes, they are busy people and may not always respond as quickly as you would like.

Yes, sometimes decisions will be made over your head, or that you do not understand.

But they will help.

You seem to have a great resistance to this concept. I don't know why.

But having been under a curateur, and seen the good and the bad, all I will say is that in my opinion it is better to swallow one's pride and accept that this is the way the Swiss system works, than to fight against it.

The curatelle system is part of the safety net. If people choose not to use it, then yes, life is going to be a struggle. Because at the end of the day all of the professionals involved are more likely to respond to another professional who knows their way around the system, than to a private individual, however determined and well-intentioned, who does not.
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Old 04.12.2018, 22:22
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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What I said on the other thread echos what I wrote here. Personal responsibility means planning for the worst. You never know if you will lose your job, get sick, have an accident, have a change of circumstances whereby you have to leave the country etc. so you should make plans for it.
And you assume people don't know that. My point was that in the Trumpian era so many countries seem inclined to head to nobody seems "safe" anymore - not even those with good savings, no record on relying on social net etc. But hey ho, let's leave it at that.
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Old 04.12.2018, 22:24
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Hey ho - Trump is in the US. If things go tits up social security wise here, it will largely be our fault I am afraid. Not enough belt and suspenders. Being in a place where autonomy is a prerequisite, it is demanding on belt and suspenders. Explains the risk aversion culture.

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Old 04.12.2018, 22:47
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I like it how Loz called social welfare a lifestyle choice in Western Europe. Hartz 4 is in Germany some 540 EUR a month (plus basic housing paid). That's not a choice and I don't know how people can live off that unless they have some illegal side business. What I have seen as a lifestyle choice though were some young expats in CH who did not exactly hurry up to find a new job once they were set up with the RAV...
Unemployment plus housing plus child benefit plus incapacity allowance plus carers allowance plus plus plus. Those who know how to milk it, milk it. Believe it or not, it is a life choice for many. Thereís even been documentaries about it (together with an EF thread). Thatís even before you get onto all the illegal stuff that goes on too: claiming for dead relatives or non existent children, faking disability, subletting state provided housing, cash in hand work on the side etc.

Iíve no problem with people taking as long as they want on the RAV. Thatís an actual insurance based on contributions that have been paid which has a time cap.
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Old 04.12.2018, 22:51
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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There are many people who spend their life on minimum wage.
Good, decent people, who just happen to be in industries that pay next to nothing, like carers, cleaners, hotel maids, etc, the list is endless.
Thatís why there is need for a safety net to catch such people when they fall on hard times. The question is how big and how encompassing do you make the net?
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Old 04.12.2018, 23:11
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

doropfiz, for a while now, you have been asking questions to help people who have fallen on hard times or mentioning them in answers to related posts. The empathy you feel for these people is commendable. I have been thinking about social systems and their affect on charity and family relationships. I would like to make a few points:

1. I feel that the existence of so-called social security systems weakens the sense of charity in the society and the support system in families. I come from a country where your family will not kick you out until you decide to marry and set up your own home even until your 30s or even more. Daughters are not expected to work and the family will support them if they fail to marry. When a person marries, their family will help them with the wedding, furniture, so on and so forth. You can always count on your family (if they have enough to share with you).
If someone loses their job, their family or friends will help them knowing that they have no other way. Admittedly my country has come a long way and set up a pretty good social security system but the culture is still there although I believe eventually we will lose this as well.

2. In countries like Switzerland where the economy is doing well and there is very low unemployment, people tend to think that they can always earn money hence they are less likely to save. The things that should be luxury (holidays abroad, expensive hobbies etc) are seen as essentials. In a culture like mine, more people are likely to be economical and only spend on luxuries after savings are put aside. This is, of course, different from individual to individual and the consumption culture is taking over gradually in my country as well.

3. For every person who would rather kill themselves than go through the humiliation of applying for social welfare, there are 10 who would rather not work and get their 3K CHF or whatever the social welfare payment is, at the first opportunity.

The system is set up to prevent abuse but this means there is a lot of overhead and layers and layers of checks built upon one another. In addition, each person asking for help is seen with the prejudice that they are trying to abuse the system.

For example, if someone is going through a burnout or a mental health issue and hence is unable to work, they might get sent to a day clinic where - seemingly- they are getting help through various therapy sessions with others when it is obvious that the place is mostly set up (or in time has become) to prevent people coming up with mental health issues to get time off work.

A second example is being sent to courses when on the RAV, some of which are probably useless.

Of course all the companies/institutions offering these courses are paid and a lot of money is spent on making sure public money is not squandered on benefit scroungers.

The points I made above unfortunately cause people 1. To fall on hard times because of overspending (admittedly in a country like CH, savings will diminish very quickly anyway) 2. Those fallen on hard times to be ignored by the society because the social welfare is there 3. The people in real need to be hassled by the social system because it is so difficult to tell the dishonest from the honest.
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