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  #41  
Old 04.12.2018, 23:01
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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...The points I made above unfortunately cause people 1. To fall on hard times because of overspending (admittedly in a country like CH, savings will diminish very quickly anyway) 2. Those fallen on hard times to be ignored by the society because the social welfare is there 3. The people in real need to be hassled by the social system because it is so difficult to tell the dishonest from the honest.
Agree with this. In one case that dorpfiz mentioned, the person took out their pension and went abroad. All the money was unfortunately wasted on a relationship that went bad, and the person came back home seeking assistance. Part of me wonders if those in charge of the system are giving this man a hard time because he did have the money and he made some terrible choices, so all the red tape is a bit like a punishment or something.
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  #42  
Old 04.12.2018, 23:49
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Agree with this. In one case that dorpfiz mentioned, the person took out their pension and went abroad. All the money was unfortunately wasted on a relationship that went bad, and the person came back home seeking assistance. Part of me wonders if those in charge of the system are giving this man a hard time because he did have the money and he made some terrible choices, so all the red tape is a bit like a punishment or something.
There are apparently quite a number of people who spend their savings, pensions, everything on a grand tour around the world and when they've run out of money, come back to live on benefits.

Not sure if that's possible anymore, though:

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...story/15148201
Did that go through?

That is obviously not what the system was designed for - but unless you know the specifics, the "system" can't really know if ending up at a zero balance was part of the plan to begin with or just the result of a series of unlucky events.

And even then: a German court ruled that a man who was told by the Sozialamt
he needed to spend all his money (inherited) before he could claim benefits and subsequently went and literally spent it all on hookers and booze, was eligible for Hartz4 without any penalties because "the Sozialamt had no say in how he was to spend the money":

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/recht/...d_4021271.html



As for suicides, this report claims that Switzerland is below average in this regard:
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/jede...beitslosigkeit

Though, of course, there's statistics and then there's statistics. If someone who doesn't earn unemployment benefits anymore because he's been unemployed for too long (or because he's a pensioner) commits suicide, does that still count towards the above statistic?
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  #43  
Old 05.12.2018, 06:15
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Unemployment plus housing plus child benefit plus incapacity allowance plus carers allowance plus plus plus. Those who know how to milk it, milk it. Believe it or not, it is a life choice for many. .
Not here in Switzerland...it's pointless to draw any parallels between UK or other states with CH in these regards.

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Iíve no problem with people taking as long as they want on the RAV. Thatís an actual insurance based on contributions that have been paid which has a time cap.
I do have a problem with those people, because unemployment insurance it's like any other insurance - not to be abused. Some people milk certain funds, others - insurances, and I had a really interesting discussion with my Swiss friend on this one...you'd be amazed (in the negative sense, of course).
But let's take unemployment insurance - you're paying a contribution that amounts up to 2.2 % of the insured income and up to 148 200 Swiss francs. The income above 148 200 Swiss francs is subject to a solidarity contribution of 1%. Someone who can work one year and then cash in up to 80% of the insured income for another two is gaming with the whole idea of being insured against certain events. I don't know how you don't have a problem here, because it's the same thing as with health insurances - practitioners and individuals gaming with the system make it more expensive and less efficient for the rest of us. It's like using your insurance for expensive treatments you don't really need or you have payed a minimum premium while benefiting from lots of stuff even when it could have been avoidable.
Frankly I feel more solidarity for people who fall through this safety net due to unpredictable events than for some spoiled brats who decide to "milk" other systems..... in all fairness, I don't really believe there are that many people who're choosing to do that though. It's probably only a tiny minority but yet again, we're trying to make a big case out of nothing.
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  #44  
Old 05.12.2018, 08:41
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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1. I feel that the existence of so-called social security systems weakens the sense of charity in the society and the support system in families. I come from a country where your family will not kick you out until you decide to marry and set up your own home even until your 30s or even more. Daughters are not expected to work and the family will support them if they fail to marry. When a person marries, their family will help them with the wedding, furniture, so on and so forth. You can always count on your family (if they have enough to share with you).


I on the other hand am more than happy that Europe has left the middle ages. Hard to believe, but there is more to a females life now than getting married off into another family.
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  #45  
Old 05.12.2018, 09:00
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Not here in Switzerland...it's pointless to draw any parallels between UK or other states with CH in these regards.
That was kinda my point.


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I do have a problem with those people, because unemployment insurance it's like any other insurance - not to be abused. Some people milk certain funds, others - insurances, and I had a really interesting discussion with my Swiss friend on this one...you'd be amazed (in the negative sense, of course).
But let's take unemployment insurance - you're paying a contribution that amounts up to 2.2 % of the insured income and up to 148 200 Swiss francs. The income above 148 200 Swiss francs is subject to a solidarity contribution of 1%. Someone who can work one year and then cash in up to 80% of the insured income for another two is gaming with the whole idea of being insured against certain events. I don't know how you don't have a problem here, because it's the same thing as with health insurances - practitioners and individuals gaming with the system make it more expensive and less efficient for the rest of us. It's like using your insurance for expensive treatments you don't really need or you have payed a minimum premium while benefiting from lots of stuff even when it could have been avoidable.
Frankly I feel more solidarity for people who fall through this safety net due to unpredictable events than for some spoiled brats who decide to "milk" other systems..... in all fairness, I don't really believe there are that many people who're choosing to do that though. It's probably only a tiny minority but yet again, we're trying to make a big case out of nothing.
Very few people want to become unemployed. What we're talking about is the smallest of minorities, young single professionals who can manage on 70% of their salary. The unbelievable low unemployment rate in Switzerland is testament to a system that works, and one where people don't take the piss.
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  #46  
Old 05.12.2018, 09:36
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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In all fairness, I don't really believe there are that many people who're choosing to do that though. It's probably only a tiny minority but yet again, we're trying to make a big case out of nothing.
It only takes a small minority... just look at your own calculation, paying a person 80% of their income means that 80 people need to pay one percent more. That's how insurances work.


I have to say that I came across several cases where the people took their time "finding a new job" while taking German lessons or doing other qualifications (not prescribed by RAV, but the type that actually would not make it possible for you to work and disqualify you from RAV payments...) or simply enjoying their summer months with an extended "staycation" at the Swiss lakes and mountains. And I sadly have to say that all the cases I know were highly educated younger expats. I fully support the Swiss system that makes people do small jobs and punishes them if they fail to do so. In my eyes should this be done much more and not only after months...
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  #47  
Old 05.12.2018, 09:50
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Didn't read through the whole thread yet, but have a question and an honest, non-cynical one: is there any country that steps in financially in some way if things get really really really dire for an individual living in that country? Would any governmental institution realistically even know/find out?
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  #48  
Old 05.12.2018, 10:27
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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And I sadly have to say that all the cases I know were highly educated younger expats.
Same observation here. Relatively young professionals calculating-in tapping into unemployment benefit when having "enough" (i.e. they considered their job boring and where either looking for another one or starting their own thing) or being very picky and not applying where they thought they could get an offer.

But there are other systemic misuses of the unemployment system - e.g. football clubs game the system, but that's peanuts compared to season dependent work. Here is an example how it works in Vallais:
https://bazonline.ch/wirtschaft/konj...story/10481654

And I saw first hand how it works as well - a gardener working for a small company is working until winter and then going on unemployment as often as possible.
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Old 05.12.2018, 10:46
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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And even then: a German court ruled that a man who was told by the Sozialamt he needed to spend all his money (inherited) before he could claim benefits and subsequently went and literally spent it all on hookers and booze, was eligible for Hartz4 without any penalties because "the Sozialamt had no say in how he was to spend the money":

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/recht/...d_4021271.html



To be able to claim social benefit in Switzerland,your assets/capital must be lower than, resp. can maximally be 4'000.- ..........





If you own your own home, regardless whether flat or house, this counts as a financial asset as well and they want you to sell that too. If you own a car, bar a few tight regulations you have to sell that as well. If oyu live in a flat that is deemed to expensive/too big, they want you to move to a cheaper one and won't stump up the cash for the expensive flat, resp. willonly pay what is in their regulations and you would have to fund the difference yourself.




Here's a translated snippet of the Skos.ch website....


"Social assistance is only provided on a subsidiary basis. Before social assistance can be claimed, one's own resources such as income, assets and labour as well as third-party benefits - insurance benefits and maintenance claims - must be exhausted."




And don't forget, when you get back onto your feet and earn a good income again or inherit money or assets....... you will have to pay back what the social paid out to you. There are of course regulations. And they can also claim money from your well-off relatives....


All details (in German) www.skos.ch
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Old 05.12.2018, 11:27
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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If you own your own home, regardless whether flat or house, this counts as a financial asset as well and they want you to sell that too.
If you own a car, bar a few tight regulations you have to sell that as well.
It depends. If living in an own place is cheaper then the house becomes a deposit but a sale be not forced.
https://www.ktipp.ch/artikel/d/muss-...aus-verkaufen/
As to a car, SKOS says only if public transport can't be used then it should be covered.

I don't have a problem with that, let's do a cantonal referendum to raise taxes so that the people on social benefits could have and run a decent car. And if they choose to divorce, then of course the new household needs, well, another apartment, another phone/internet/billag and of course another car. Because, let's not forget, single parent families are a large share of benefactors of social help.
https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwe...ilfe-131881657

Somehow is is not labelled as a "lifestyle choice".
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  #51  
Old 05.12.2018, 12:00
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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But there are other systemic misuses of the unemployment system - e.g. football clubs game the system, but that's peanuts compared to season dependent work. Here is an example how it works in Vallais:
https://bazonline.ch/wirtschaft/konj...story/10481654

And I saw first hand how it works as well - a gardener working for a small company is working until winter and then going on unemployment as often as possible.
The idea that this is systematically abused here ignores the fundamental restrictions place on the individual. The gardener may have accrued his two years of contributions in the past, which will allow him up to 400 days on RAV, same as anyone else, but this will only last for a short time (max 2 years) if he doesn't find full time employment again. Same for seasonal workers - it's just not possible to receive support in the long term for this way of working, so the conclusion you're drawing from the article is flawed.

As far as I can see, the graphs showing unemployment rates seem to be based on all those registered as unemployed, not just those who are actually receiving benefits. Furthermore, the article is talking about a winter program providing temporary employment for building workers over the winter months, so again, at odds with the idea of "gaming" the system that you claim.
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Old 05.12.2018, 12:15
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Switzerland provides excellent social help. Of course there are sad cases but I don't think any country can afford to provide "stress free" life for citizens. Switzerland in particular, IMHO, is not a reach country. Simply it has nothing to offer, no natural resources (oil, gas), no industry. The only thing is the financial/banking sector which does not give back anything to the country but misfortune by making the swiss franc a strong currency on foreign exchange. CHF should loose half of its value to stop the slow but steady dying of swiss industry.

Speaking of RAV in particular, I wish there was no RAV at all. So many horrible people here at work simply because the safety net of the system. People are stubborn and are playing politics to make their point rather than doing what's best for the company. Who would care when in the worst case they have 2 years of hefty support
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Old 05.12.2018, 12:35
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I on the other hand am more than happy that Europe has left the middle ages. Hard to believe, but there is more to a females life now than getting married off into another family.
The point I tried to make was that, the family accepted responsibility for their offspring rather than rely on the system. How is supporting your daughter worse than letting her get knocked up at 16 to get social housing and live on benefits all their life? At least my culture tries to keep the family intact and make sure children are raised by both parents.

I also did not say women are forced to stay home. There are more and more women working every generation.

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Old 05.12.2018, 12:36
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I have to say that I came across several cases where the people took their time "finding a new job" while taking German lessons or doing other qualifications (not prescribed by RAV, but the type that actually would not make it possible for you to work and disqualify you from RAV payments...) or simply enjoying their summer months with an extended "staycation" at the Swiss lakes and mountains. And I sadly have to say that all the cases I know were highly educated younger expats. I fully support the Swiss system that makes people do small jobs and punishes them if they fail to do so. In my eyes should this be done much more and not only after months...
Yeah, I don't know what to say and it's probably a bit useless to try to figure out everyone's particular conditions. I know someone who's unemployed for half of year already and is going to lots of interviews and nada. I don't think he lacks qualifications or work experience or whatever, and I would be actually happy for this person if they at least found a course for him or whatever to get out of the house and meet other people. It seems like it's spiralling down into a depression but what can friends do. However, yes, as I said, there are some people who reeeally "take their time" - highly qualified and less qualified alike.

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Speaking of RAV in particular, I wish there was no RAV at all. So many horrible people here at work simply because the safety net of the system. People are stubborn and are playing politics to make their point rather than doing what's best for the company. Who would care when in the worst case they have 2 years of hefty support
Hehe, your post brought a smile on my face. True, some people are a**holes but it's not the system's fault..:-)

Seriously, there's this type I used to call as above. It's up to each company to select its employees though - to create a good work culture etc.

Last edited by greenmount; 05.12.2018 at 13:01.
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Old 05.12.2018, 13:36
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Agree with this. In one case that dorpfiz mentioned, the person took out their pension and went abroad. All the money was unfortunately wasted on a relationship that went bad, and the person came back home seeking assistance. Part of me wonders if those in charge of the system are giving this man a hard time because he did have the money and he made some terrible choices, so all the red tape is a bit like a punishment or something.
lol I think I know that guy
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Old 05.12.2018, 13:38
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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The idea that this is systematically abused here ignores the fundamental restrictions place on the individual. The gardener may have accrued his two years of contributions in the past, which will allow him up to 400 days on RAV, same as anyone else, but this will only last for a short time (max 2 years) if he doesn't find full time employment again. Same for seasonal workers - it's just not possible to receive support in the long term for this way of working, so the conclusion you're drawing from the article is flawed.

As far as I can see, the graphs showing unemployment rates seem to be based on all those registered as unemployed, not just those who are actually receiving benefits. Furthermore, the article is talking about a winter program providing temporary employment for building workers over the winter months, so again, at odds with the idea of "gaming" the system that you claim.
So what they do is they factor-in the unemployment benefits and organize the job contracts to extract as much from the unemployment as possible - i.e. work when work is available, off to unemployed in the dead season, and then get re-hired by exactly the same company in the spring.
Edit: it is widespread in Vallais, it is how the companies save their costs. They used to have workers from abroad on L permits, now they come on B permits, and the canton is trying to curb this practice:
https://www.vs.ch/web/sict/chomage-saisonnier
Vallais is unique in the sense that construction and hospitality are large part of its economy, but the same "solution" is used by employers in Vaud as well.
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Old 05.12.2018, 13:56
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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...f you are not Swiss, why the hell are you in this country for 40k a year? ..
Because I was on 80k (equivalent) when I arrived here 20 years ago, and this is now my home, where my entire support network exists.

The social security system depends very much on the quality and dedication of the individuals who work in it. It also depends on your community. Where I live the local government have various programs designed to keep people on low incomes from having to go on the social in the first place.
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Old 05.12.2018, 14:08
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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The point I tried to make was that, the family accepted responsibility for their offspring rather than rely on the system. How is supporting your daughter worse than letting her get knocked up at 16 to get social housing and live on benefits all their life. At least my culture tries to keep the family intact and make sure children are raised by both parents?

I also did not say women are forced to stay home. There are more and more women working every generation.


There is nothing wrong with having a strong family and it is great if people care for each other. The whole point of a social security system is to overcome bloodlines and be able to support different life styles your family might not support.


The whole idea of modern western social security systems is that you don't HAVE to have children in order to have a safe retirement. And yes, you should not HAVE to rely on your family to live or have access to education... because lets face it - most people who are in deep trouble with the system as the OP lined out will most likely not have a strong family to rely on.


Yes, you are from a different cultural background... so you might not know the history or struggle it was for the average European to get things we now consider normal. Like a health insurance, unemployment insurance, paid holidays or a retirement fund. People actually fought for that, they did not just happen. "Why don't we just have family members taking care of each other instead" in to be very honest an outright stupid argument. The benefits of the social systems by far outweigh the downside of having a few freeloaders...


And if you really have to bring up the stereotypes of teenage girls who allegedly get pregnant to get benefits (really does not happen in CH...) can I just counter that with the immigrant girls who go on a summer vacation to Turkey and come back married... to apply for a residence permit for their new husbands.
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Old 05.12.2018, 14:27
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Where I live the local government have various programs designed to keep people on low incomes from having to go on the social in the first place.
That's interesting. Could you please post a link? Thanks.
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Old 05.12.2018, 14:36
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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There is nothing wrong with having a strong family and it is great if people care for each other. The whole point of a social security system is to overcome bloodlines and be able to support different life styles your family might not support.


The whole idea of modern western social security systems is that you don't HAVE to have children in order to have a safe retirement. And yes, you should not HAVE to rely on your family to live or have access to education... because lets face it - most people who are in deep trouble with the system as the OP lined out will most likely not have a strong family to rely on.


Yes, you are from a different cultural background... so you might not know the history or struggle it was for the average European to get things we now consider normal. Like a health insurance, unemployment insurance, paid holidays or a retirement fund. People actually fought for that, they did not just happen. "Why don't we just have family members taking care of each other instead" in to be very honest an outright stupid argument. The benefits of the social systems by far outweigh the downside of having a few freeloaders...


And if you really have to bring up the stereotypes of teenage girls who allegedly get pregnant to get benefits (really does not happen in CH...) can I just counter that with the immigrant girls who go on a summer vacation to Turkey and come back married... to apply for a residence permit for their new husbands.
1. No-one said social security systems are bad. You are just cherry-picking my words for the sake of making your long set arguments.

I do believe in family. It is better for one's pride and mental health to get support from family before state is involved.

2. Then I counter saying that the people on the dole in Germany would rather get their housing support and 600-700 euros a month than do an honest day's work picking asparagus in the cold so people from poorer countries are hiresd o do these jobs.

We can go on and on bringing counter arguments.

I also don't get what you have against Turks or Eastern Europe that you take every opportunity to point their faults? Your country chose to invite the most uneducated people from Turkey who were willing to do the worst jobs in the 60s, checked their teeth as if they were workhorses to make sure they were healthy and pushed them into ghettos!
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