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  #101  
Old 06.12.2018, 13:59
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Which is why you and your fellow countrymen rather look for greener pastures elsewhere?
...and why did you look for greener pastures elsewhere, Teverus? I remember I had the same conversation once with an American. He imagined he was in a place for totally different reasons than mine, which was not true (yes, my country is second world country but so what? I have the same education if not better and I am equally inclined to make the best out of it)....hope your comment was in jest.

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If you look at those countries with a low level of social security and/or welfare, it doesn't teach people to develop their survival instinct in any shape or form. If you fall by the wayside either intentionally or unintentionally, you just end up on the streets, which you see in significant numbers in such countries and areas.

Good preparation and planning counts for exactly zero if you have luck against you.
I don't know where Gramatyka is from, but I bet he isn't that well informed. For instance.
I am from one of the "poor" EU countries (not really poor...but that's a discussion for another time) and there are so many people that are helped by the "system", though this help is not sufficient by any means. I think I read once in an article that there were more than 50 social "helps" people can apply for : minimum income, children allowance, winter allowance (what the hell is that even?), unemployment allowance, health care is for free, education is for free, transport allowance - back home pensioners and school children don't pay anything for the public transport etc etc etc etc. Insufficient because you still see people in the streets, and not those you expect to btw, simply people who were once employed, lost their job, went through a divorce and lost their house, add to that a common problem in such cases that nobody wants to tackle - alcoholism and....voila. But I have seen homeless people everywhere (except for CH of course), dire conditions some people live in everywhere.... I don't agree that all those charities that were formed should take care of these people. It's the whole society through even taxes - not from the population because we are taxed about 50% from our income at source, but through companies......now there we have a problem. But anyway, we digress.
The truth is the whole EU is formed by "social states", some more efficient and richer than others but still...it doesn't mean that the poorer ones don't have any social protection or "safety net"...though most of the time your family is your safety net...if you're a little bit lucky.;-(

Last edited by greenmount; 06.12.2018 at 15:43.
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  #102  
Old 06.12.2018, 14:41
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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So why did you write all the other posts then?
Because that's how discussions work.
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  #103  
Old 06.12.2018, 15:17
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Interesting reply

Ad 1.
Yeah all the medical industries, pharma, banking are moving the jobs away from Switzerland.

Ad 3.
Of course it's nice to have better purchase power as a consumer but it is really bad for developing the industry - see point 1.

Ad 4.
That's what I can see around: layoffs, pressure for cutting the salaries, "virtual" job offers which in fact just hung around for months because in reality the post is not there because of business uncertainty.

Ad 2.
Well, then that's the only positive point. I have no knowledge how much the banking industry pays back in taxes but once someone whom I met at RAV told me the financial sector is moving away from Switzerland because the favorable tax agreements ended. I just guess that it did not share much and once the obligation increased the business is moving away.
Great reply Gramatyka, I completely agree with your knowledgeable response.
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  #104  
Old 06.12.2018, 16:10
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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If you look at those countries with a low level of social security and/or welfare, it doesn't teach people to develop their survival instinct in any shape or form.
This isn't true. Or mostly isn't. No support means you will do all there is to prevent ending up on the streets. Prevention, modesty and survival is the skillset of poor people. It often takes them further in life than those used to being backed up. Entitlement isn't a mindset useful for autonomous and preventative minds.

I don't think there is much luck/bad luck/fortune in life. Only thinking ahead and adjusting in a timely way. Entitlement is in fact in direct opposition of this. I don't know that many survivors with a sense of entitlement.
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  #105  
Old 06.12.2018, 16:19
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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This isn't true. Or mostly isn't. No support means you will do all there is to prevent ending up on the streets. Prevention, modesty and survival is the skillset of poor people. It often takes them further in life than those used to being backed up. Entitlement isn't a mindset useful for autonomous and preventative minds.
Just considering that there are significantly less homeless and destitute in Switzerland which has a functioning welfare system compared with some other European countries with a severely lacking system which has homeless people all over bus shelters, train stations, under bridges and in parks. This suggests that not everyone possesses nor is capable of developing the "survival instinct".

Of course you do everything possible to prevent it but if luck is against you or should I say things are beyond your control, and there's no safety net your only option is homelessness.

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I don't think there is much luck/bad luck/fortune in life.
Then maybe you have lead a sheltered life? Personally I don't think it is so romanticised.

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Only thinking ahead and adjusting in a timely way. Entitlement is in fact in direct opposition of this. I don't know that many survivors with a sense of entitlement.
Nobody can plan for every eventuality. Entitlement is irrelevant in most cases.
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  #106  
Old 06.12.2018, 16:46
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Follow up study has verified the initial findings. Still some way to go, but on the right track.

Anyway, back on topic. Here's some numbers:

The European Union is:

7.2% of the World Population.
23.8% of the World’s GDP.
58% of the World’s Welfare Spending.
Angela Merkel is the one who have repeated that a few times.
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  #107  
Old 06.12.2018, 16:50
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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This suggests that not everyone possesses nor is capable of developing the "survival instinct".
I think everyone develops this survival instinct, even if sometimes only in ways we probably find ridiculous or undignified. The whole purpose of a civilised society though is to give anyone a fair chance to use their potential...for more than surviving...it takes only a little, Sandgrounder, in some places, in order to spiral down, deeper and deeper into desolation. You lose your job and the unemployment benefits are over in say 2 years. Meantime you start drinking and your wife leaves you, divorces from you and you're out living on the streets...probably for ever. I gave only one example when people get "lost" so easily.

Last edited by greenmount; 06.12.2018 at 23:08. Reason: a few
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  #108  
Old 06.12.2018, 16:51
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Which is why you and your fellow countrymen rather look for greener pastures elsewhere?
Not only his fellow countrymen, but also the >1MM immigrants that Merkel welcomed.
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  #109  
Old 06.12.2018, 16:57
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I think everyone develops this survival instinct, in ways we probably find ridiculous or undignified. The whole purpose of a civilised society though is to give anyone a fair chance to use their potential for more than surviving...it takes only a little, Sandgrounder, in some places, in order to spiral down, deeper and deeper into desolation. You lose your job and the unemployment benefits are over in say 2 years. Meantime you start drinking and your wife leaves you, divorces you and you're out in the streets...probably for ever. I gave only one example when people get lost so easily.
I agree. There was a documentary on not so long ago where they followed the stories of various homeless people in the UK. Their stories were heart breaking and, in most cases, not their fault. Makes you thankful for what you have.
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  #110  
Old 06.12.2018, 18:05
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Ha ha, yes, of course. I don't believe that I own anything to a country and no country owns me anything but I believe in social agreement, you contribute to your society and the society helps you when in need. Yes, I do constantly look for "greener pastures" wherever they may appear but not in a sense of being an animal fed by someone.

Don't worry, you and Trev and the rest of people on EF and a considerable percentage of the world population are in the same boat, he doesn't want to admit it though. The famous cognitive dissonance.

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not-so-smart or lazy people just benefit from where they have been born and yet complain that it's not enough. Actually, the attitude of looking for greener pastures (being fed well by the system) is common in the rich developed countries
Hmm, I like these generalisations...
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  #111  
Old 06.12.2018, 18:35
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Key words: may, could, hope. Sample size: 69.

145 quid? Hardly a drop in the bucket for a family supporting an ASD child. Also not guaranteed even with a diagnosis.


Edit: just caught up.

I think there is good and bad luck. And a great deal of folk are only a few pay cheques away from catastrophe. Add in a suddenly broken boiler, a knackered car that you need to get to your minimum wage job...

Last edited by RufusB; 06.12.2018 at 18:50.
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  #112  
Old 06.12.2018, 21:50
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Just considering that there are significantly less homeless and destitute in Switzerland which has a functioning welfare system compared with some other European countries with a severely lacking system which has homeless people all over bus shelters, train stations, under bridges and in parks. This suggests that not everyone possesses nor is capable of developing the "survival instinct".
Yeah, comparing a country which has not been disturbed by any war for over 500 years with a country(ies) which were victim of communism.

There are people who were brought up in poverty, so severe poverty that they did not have a chance to see any other way of living. This is a big problem. Those people are most likely destined to live on the streets. I was lucky to be brought up by hard working poor family (typical family condition like more than half of the families in the country at that time) so I understood that I have to work hard to achieve anything in my live as a good life doesn't come free. At least until I grew up enough to understand my father was able to make me work hard enough (ouch!) to not lose my chances. As others said it is a matter of a mindset. I have and I always had nice hobbies, like photography, travel, poetry, but I always knew that I need to learn math well and pursue technical education to land in a profession which pays off. It was clear for me that it was the only way. I'm sorry, but even today I'm laughing at people who carelessly pursued career in anything which I would call only a hobby and now they complain loudly about the market injustice or insufficient social safety net. So I do believe that poorer countries indeed develop better "survival instinct".

Bad luck, emotional problems, addictions happens, and ruin peoples life, likewise in poor and rich countries.
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  #113  
Old 06.12.2018, 23:26
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I understood that I have to work hard to achieve anything in my live as a good life doesn't come free. At least until I grew up enough to understand my father was able to make me work hard enough (ouch!) to not lose my chances. As others said it is a matter of a mindset.
That made me think of a famous comedian's punchline "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad."

(sorry, I'm joking)
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  #114  
Old 06.12.2018, 23:46
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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That made me think of a famous comedian's punchline "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad."

(sorry, I'm joking)
Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad

Exactly
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  #115  
Old 07.12.2018, 00:10
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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comparing a country which has not been disturbed by any war for over 500 years
And what country would that be?

Certainly NOT Switzerland!

If you think so, you really need to study some history.

Tom
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  #116  
Old 07.12.2018, 09:02
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Exactly
I know, it's a different mentality. :-)

Anyways. While I agree with your sentiment and with most of the ideas in your posts, I think I still prefer the Western European way of dealing with some social issues. Some people cannot pull themselves out of certain situations and the society shouldn't leave those people "manage by themselves", with just a minimal assistance. I think it is utterly unfair that a part of the continent indulges in these policies and programmes while the other one struggles to be "capitalistic" and "efficient" and "austere". Social darwinism at work. And just think about it - you, like millions of other youths from these countries, graduated from school with 0 debt load. You did not pay any tuition fees unless you graduated from some fancy private institution. You are not going to spend the first ten years of your work life just to pay back those debts....and thanks to whom, or what? The much hated "social state"...which is failing people in these countries but still struggles to provide something. Anyways, this is not the only thing you're taking for granted, but it's the first one that came to my mind. I am in favour of balance to be honest. I don't think we should compete with the most darwinistic societies, while others take advantage of our "stoicism" and lack of adequate social and economic protectionism.

Back to the OP......finally. I had no idea it's so difficult to get the much needed help or assistance here. It's probably the same everywhere, it is not as simple as it seems. Tons of documents to be submitted, inner strength to face all this non-benevolent scrutiny, long waiting time etc etc. etc. I don't believe people like to go through all of these because they feel "entitled"...
I noticed that Swiss people, like in other places too, do care about their neighbours, friends, relatives etc. It is a bit surprising that some people capitulate in certain situations, it's maybe a sign of how lonely people can get here (and there, everywhere). It is a pity, really.
I totally understand OP's feelings and desire to help. Congrats for this this thread, Doropfiz. I still hope some people will post some useful links or tips here. :-)

Last edited by greenmount; 07.12.2018 at 09:19.
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  #117  
Old 07.12.2018, 09:15
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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145 quid? Hardly a drop in the bucket for a family supporting an ASD child. Also not guaranteed even with a diagnosis.
Unlikely that a family living under a Welfare State would ever have to pay for that. That's how universal health care works.

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I agree. There was a documentary on not so long ago where they followed the stories of various homeless people in the UK. Their stories were heart breaking and, in most cases, not their fault. Makes you thankful for what you have.
Most people who are homeless (by which I mean living on the streets) in Western Europe are not homeless because they cannot find a home. Most homeless are homeless because they can not function in one.

Drink, drugs, mental illness, gambling addiction whatever. Sounds harsh, but it's true.
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  #118  
Old 07.12.2018, 09:59
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

To the op, for me its a numbers game. Harsh as it may sound.

I want my country to provide a safety net for the poor, sick, old. I don’t wont my tax money being spent on the lazy, can’t be arsed to get a job people.

So it has to be a balance between carrot and stick. In the end there will be some falling through the cracks but that is the price to pay if you don’t want the country end up on the slippery slope towards crossing the Laffer curve. This is of course brutal for the ones it happens to but life isn’t fair.

Switzerland, in my opinion, has found the right balance.
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Old 07.12.2018, 11:10
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Most people who are homeless (by which I mean living on the streets) in Western Europe are not homeless because they cannot find a home. Most homeless are homeless because they can not function in one.

Drink, drugs, mental illness, gambling addiction whatever. Sounds harsh, but it's true.
So? Are you saying this precludes them from any kind of assistance to get them back on their feet? You think it's always their own fault because they have brought it all upon themselves and didn't plan meticulously?

The naivety on this thread is quite revealing.
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  #120  
Old 07.12.2018, 11:17
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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...and why did you look for greener pastures elsewhere, Teverus? I remember I had the same conversation once with an American. He imagined he was in a place for totally different reasons than mine, which was not true (yes, my country is second world country but so what? I have the same education if not better and I am equally inclined to make the best out of it)....hope your comment was in jest.
I am afraid it wasn't in jest. While I technically now live in my home country was I away for 18 years and just reluctantly returned...


I left my home country because the companies of Germany who today complain about a shortage of trained professionals were not willing to train and pay juniors properly 15 years ago... who could have foreseen the result...


Back then they were offering graduates "internships" or sub-contracted work to avoid the labour protection laws we are actually talking about here. Shit pay, no protection from getting fired and while there are good intentions in the laws did the companies find enough loopholes to get around them. That's not my personal opinion, the press called my generation of college graduates "generation internship". Because our government was on some neo-liberal course believing we should remove all those pesky laws to become more competitive. As if the German economy ever wasn't...


So I got up and left to a country that treated me in many ways better - Switzerland. There is no protection against getting fired, but the social net in my experience worked very well. The thing is that I am honest about it. I went to a place that offered me a good life. The one thing I really get annoyed about is the bigotry I have witnessed with expats... in different flavours.


1. The English guys I met in Singapore having an after work beer in an English pub, spending the weekends in the British Club, sending their kids to the British school and complaining how them Muslims don't spend any effort to integrate back home...


2. The Americans who tell me how everything is so much better if you have more freedom and less of those socialist laws... while enjoying the paid vacation days you only get in Europe


3. The Eastern Europeans complaining how their countries are bleeding out of talent... while leaving themselves. And if then somebody tells me that the lack of decent laws make you harder and more flexible do I not know how else to respond... How can you honestly be proud about the idea that your country might not offer decent social help? Its totally fine to be a patriot, but picking this very topic and telling us that's the way it should be is bizarre to me. I by now guess it is some knee-jerk reaction based on the communist heritage - everything social is now bad. The truth is as usual in the middle of extremes.
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