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Old 07.12.2018, 11:23
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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So? Are you saying this precludes them from any kind of assistance to get them back on their feet? You think it's always their own fault because they have brought it all upon themselves and didn't plan meticulously?

The naivety on this thread is quite revealing.
Where have I said any of those things? My point is that homelessness normally isn't a failure of social security system, rather another cause.
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  #122  
Old 07.12.2018, 11:49
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Where have I said any of those things? My point is that homelessness normally isn't a failure of social security system, rather another cause.
Nobody said it was.
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Old 07.12.2018, 11:54
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I want my country to provide a safety net for the poor, sick, old. I donít wont my tax money being spent on the lazy, canít be arsed to get a job people.

So it has to be a balance between carrot and stick. In the end there will be some falling through the cracks but that is the price to pay if you donít want the country end up on the slippery slope towards crossing the Laffer curve. This is of course brutal for the ones it happens to but life isnít fair.

Which is far too easy to say if you're not one of the ones it happens to
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  #124  
Old 07.12.2018, 13:15
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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3. The Eastern Europeans complaining how their countries are bleeding out of talent... while leaving themselves. And if then somebody tells me that the lack of decent laws make you harder and more flexible do I not know how else to respond... How can you honestly be proud about the idea that your country might not offer decent social help? Its totally fine to be a patriot, but picking this very topic and telling us that's the way it should be is bizarre to me. I by now guess it is some knee-jerk reaction based on the communist heritage - everything social is now bad. The truth is as usual in the middle of extremes.
I personally don't agree with Gramatyka on this one. Not having an adequate or relatively efficient social help system is no reason to be "proud" of. One can be proud of other things, but not really this one...each to their own.
As for greener pastures. Well, you said something about those German companies that didn't have a good strategy re. HR at the time and now complain about qualified labour shortage....well other people have the same or similar reasons. Add in the mix the fact that many graduates don't find a job in their field because most of the relevant institutions keep cutting costs and blocking vacancies and wage growth due to austerity measures, or simply there aren't many companies left in certain fields - for instance, if you graduate from certain faculties you simply can't find a job in that field or you can't find a job soon enough as to not count on the "system"(chemical engineer, mechanical engineer, textile engineer etc etc etc). It's not always a choice or a matter of going to where you feel treated better as an employee, tax payer etc. or simply because it makes sense for your career.

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So I got up and left to a country that treated me in many ways better - Switzerland. There is no protection against getting fired, but the social net in my experience worked very well. The thing is that I am honest about it. I went to a place that offered me a good life. The one thing I really get annoyed about is the bigotry I have witnessed with expats... in different flavours.
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Exactly. You went to a place that treated you better. I don't know how the social net works because fortunately, neither I nor OH needed it. But if I stayed in my country I would have had 2 years of payed maternity leave up to 80% of my last salary. I also enjoyed 4 or 5 weeks of payed annual holiday so I never expected things to be better than that. Had I lost my job I would have got 9 months of unemployment benefits (I didn't have 10 years of work history otherwise I would have got more). I don't have to tell you though what happens here once you start a family, after the so-called maternity leave is over....but one has to count the positive aspects and draw the line..

But you're right, I wish it was different from many points of view. Sue me and other Eastern Europeans for expressing our views (as if there's not sufficient EE bashing in general). I certainly don't feel proud of the lack of adequate social help....on the other hand I used to pay about 50% of my salary to the taxman, don't know how could I have been a better citizen... Edit: even now, because my mom is an accountant and there's no way I could forget such things - I'm up to date with my fiscal statements (i.e. I pay some taxes there too)...so there. I always have a bitter taste after having to justify myself like that, but so be it. We're used to it.

Last edited by greenmount; 08.12.2018 at 14:53. Reason: edited to make it more clear....
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  #125  
Old 07.12.2018, 15:00
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

I have a gripe with officials and system mentality in this country because I think it serves gratuitous cruelty for the heck of the system.

My favorite example from a newspaper (which I can no longer find): a pensioner claims he submitted a 1st pillar pension request according to the system, and wants it to be paid pack from the day he was eligible to receive it, and he doesn't want to send another one because that would mean he would lost the pension from the beginning until later when resubmitted.
The respective office somehow did not get the request or lost it, so decides not to pay it. And there is a deadlock and a multiyear dispute or litigation.

My real-life examples: I failed to pay for the car inspection. They not only sent the reminders with some fee for the burden, but finally revoked my license plates and out of about 50 bucks made a 500 one.

And the stories abound about how the work disability insurer offices select the medical experts assessing the health of claimants so that the only likely outcome is a rejection. So I believe every word of the OP.

The prevailing mentality is that the state is above the personal liberty, and therefore the institutions "are always right", they are "upholding better good", they are "to help".

And we, the foreigners, don't understand it. And here is the clash.

Because, to keep this state authority the state has to keep people from crossing any line, even if it is an arbitrarily stupid one for the sake of keeping the order. Maybe it makes the society more "efficient" as a whole, but I believe it drives some people suicidal by its gratuitous cruelty.
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Old 07.12.2018, 15:51
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

There will alsways be cases in any system, that end up either lost or problamatic or just a total screw up, nobody is fallable whilst the system is so unfortunately a very few cases fall down the cracks and holes.


Sad, yes, sure it's sad, can we do anything about it, very little !
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