Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Insurance  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 07.12.2018, 11:23
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZŁrich
Posts: 2,821
Groaned at 593 Times in 371 Posts
Thanked 9,257 Times in 3,771 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Quote:
View Post
So? Are you saying this precludes them from any kind of assistance to get them back on their feet? You think it's always their own fault because they have brought it all upon themselves and didn't plan meticulously?

The naivety on this thread is quite revealing.
Where have I said any of those things? My point is that homelessness normally isn't a failure of social security system, rather another cause.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Loz1983 for this useful post:
  #122  
Old 07.12.2018, 11:49
Sandgrounder's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ZH
Posts: 12,568
Groaned at 104 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 21,995 Times in 8,478 Posts
Sandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond repute
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Quote:
View Post
Where have I said any of those things? My point is that homelessness normally isn't a failure of social security system, rather another cause.
Nobody said it was.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Sandgrounder for this useful post:
  #123  
Old 07.12.2018, 11:54
eng_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Up where the air is clear
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 1,317 Times in 690 Posts
eng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Quote:
I want my country to provide a safety net for the poor, sick, old. I donít wont my tax money being spent on the lazy, canít be arsed to get a job people.

So it has to be a balance between carrot and stick. In the end there will be some falling through the cracks but that is the price to pay if you donít want the country end up on the slippery slope towards crossing the Laffer curve. This is of course brutal for the ones it happens to but life isnít fair.

Which is far too easy to say if you're not one of the ones it happens to
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank eng_ch for this useful post:
  #124  
Old 07.12.2018, 13:15
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 7,516
Groaned at 230 Times in 188 Posts
Thanked 9,488 Times in 5,086 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Quote:
View Post
3. The Eastern Europeans complaining how their countries are bleeding out of talent... while leaving themselves. And if then somebody tells me that the lack of decent laws make you harder and more flexible do I not know how else to respond... How can you honestly be proud about the idea that your country might not offer decent social help? Its totally fine to be a patriot, but picking this very topic and telling us that's the way it should be is bizarre to me. I by now guess it is some knee-jerk reaction based on the communist heritage - everything social is now bad. The truth is as usual in the middle of extremes.
I personally don't agree with Gramatyka on this one. Not having an adequate or relatively efficient social help system is no reason to be "proud" of. One can be proud of other things, but not really this one...each to their own.
As for greener pastures. Well, you said something about those German companies that didn't have a good strategy re. HR at the time and now complain about qualified labour shortage....well other people have the same or similar reasons. Add in the mix the fact that many graduates don't find a job in their field because most of the relevant institutions keep cutting costs and blocking vacancies and wage growth due to austerity measures, or simply there aren't many companies left in certain fields - for instance, if you graduate from certain faculties you simply can't find a job in that field or you can't find a job soon enough as to not count on the "system"(chemical engineer, mechanical engineer, textile engineer etc etc etc). It's not always a choice or a matter of going to where you feel treated better as an employee, tax payer etc. or simply because it makes sense for your career.

Quote:
View Post
So I got up and left to a country that treated me in many ways better - Switzerland. There is no protection against getting fired, but the social net in my experience worked very well. The thing is that I am honest about it. I went to a place that offered me a good life. The one thing I really get annoyed about is the bigotry I have witnessed with expats... in different flavours.
.
Exactly. You went to a place that treated you better. I don't know how the social net works because fortunately, neither I nor OH needed it. But if I stayed in my country I would have had 2 years of payed maternity leave up to 80% of my last salary. I also enjoyed 4 or 5 weeks of payed annual holiday so I never expected things to be better than that. Had I lost my job I would have got 9 months of unemployment benefits (I didn't have 10 years of work history otherwise I would have got more). I don't have to tell you though what happens here once you start a family, after the so-called maternity leave is over....but one has to count the positive aspects and draw the line..

But you're right, I wish it was different from many points of view. Sue me and other Eastern Europeans for expressing our views (as if there's not sufficient EE bashing in general). I certainly don't feel proud of the lack of adequate social help....on the other hand I used to pay about 50% of my salary to the taxman, don't know how could I have been a better citizen... Edit: even now, because my mom is an accountant and there's no way I could forget such things - I'm up to date with my fiscal statements (i.e. I pay some taxes there too)...so there. I always have a bitter taste after having to justify myself like that, but so be it. We're used to it.

Last edited by greenmount; 08.12.2018 at 14:53. Reason: edited to make it more clear....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #125  
Old 07.12.2018, 15:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,263
Groaned at 89 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 1,302 Times in 760 Posts
yacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

I have a gripe with officials and system mentality in this country because I think it serves gratuitous cruelty for the heck of the system.

My favorite example from a newspaper (which I can no longer find): a pensioner claims he submitted a 1st pillar pension request according to the system, and wants it to be paid pack from the day he was eligible to receive it, and he doesn't want to send another one because that would mean he would lost the pension from the beginning until later when resubmitted.
The respective office somehow did not get the request or lost it, so decides not to pay it. And there is a deadlock and a multiyear dispute or litigation.

My real-life examples: I failed to pay for the car inspection. They not only sent the reminders with some fee for the burden, but finally revoked my license plates and out of about 50 bucks made a 500 one.

And the stories abound about how the work disability insurer offices select the medical experts assessing the health of claimants so that the only likely outcome is a rejection. So I believe every word of the OP.

The prevailing mentality is that the state is above the personal liberty, and therefore the institutions "are always right", they are "upholding better good", they are "to help".

And we, the foreigners, don't understand it. And here is the clash.

Because, to keep this state authority the state has to keep people from crossing any line, even if it is an arbitrarily stupid one for the sake of keeping the order. Maybe it makes the society more "efficient" as a whole, but I believe it drives some people suicidal by its gratuitous cruelty.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank yacek for this useful post:
  #126  
Old 07.12.2018, 15:51
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,310
Groaned at 700 Times in 475 Posts
Thanked 7,625 Times in 3,621 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

There will alsways be cases in any system, that end up either lost or problamatic or just a total screw up, nobody is fallable whilst the system is so unfortunately a very few cases fall down the cracks and holes.


Sad, yes, sure it's sad, can we do anything about it, very little !
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
  #127  
Old 22.12.2018, 01:34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 417
Groaned at 41 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 208 Times in 121 Posts
Gramatyka356 has annoyed a few people around hereGramatyka356 has annoyed a few people around here
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Quote:
View Post
And if then somebody tells me that the lack of decent laws make you harder and more flexible do I not know how else to respond... How can you honestly be proud about the idea that your country might not offer decent social help? Its totally fine to be a patriot, but picking this very topic and telling us that's the way it should be is bizarre to me. I by now guess it is some knee-jerk reaction based on the communist heritage - everything social is now bad. The truth is as usual in the middle of extremes.
Just going over the interesting discussions which I had not time to participate recently.

Treverus, I guess it's about my posts...

It's not about being proud of having a crap social system which leave you no choice but to be strong and live or just die, nothing in the middle. It's about being raised to be strong by the circumstances.

I read from time to time about psychology. My first deeper contact with the developed western world was through work in American corporation. In the USA I couldn't understand at first how people think. At first I could feel a lot of tension and desire to go up but then I started to read it as a constant fear of falling down. There's an interesting study of why does it happen Status Anxiety by Alain De Botton. I remember one interesting thesis stated in the book that low class people in a feudal society were happier than the free people in the western world. Those people took the world order as it is and enjoyed every happy moment they could have.

It's a pity that a good social setup have the opposite effect on people living in it. A child doesn't know that the system is in good or bad condition, just get it as it is, learn to live within it. I understand that people cannot cope with the situation when they suddenly fall below the minimum which they have always assumed as granted, when the system has failed upon them. I'm not proud of being born in communism. I'm rather more humble in life. I do my best and I have achieved a lot but when shit happens I don't fall into suicidal desperation because I don't assume anything as granted. I'm just always looking forward to get the best out of the situation.

I'm not against social help but I honestly see that it has a negative effect on the society. It's not only about comparing my country with the west. Believe it or not but in eastern europe we also have a generation of millennials. Their parents worked hard to give them normal childhood, better opportunities, better life than the communism crap. In return we have a generation with much lower ambition. The whole generation performed much worse throughout education and overall opting for the bare minimum education level. There's a lot of psychological problems, depression and suicide cases. Why does it happen? Why upbringing in better conditions makes people more vulnerable in life?

I hope one day psychology solves the problem. We would evolve into a world where humble, passionate, strong and ambitious people would dominate in the society despite having strong social setup (lack of direct life threatening motivation).
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Gramatyka356 for this useful post:
  #128  
Old 22.12.2018, 15:10
BLP's Avatar
BLP BLP is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Vaud
Posts: 781
Groaned at 22 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 336 Times in 225 Posts
BLP has an excellent reputationBLP has an excellent reputationBLP has an excellent reputationBLP has an excellent reputation
Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

Quote:
View Post
And don't forget that you only usually hear from the people who are struggling and at their wits end.

I know of one mum who was forced to flee her violent boyfriend, who ended up in prison for his violence, she was left with nothing. The state has stepped in to support her and even take the pressure off so she can work and study (she has young children).

Her situation is the product of her ex partner's mental health issues. No fault of hers or her kids. She's on the way to standing back on her own two feet again. She would have just spiralled out of control had nobody been there.

Sometimes the state system just works.
Wow, I wish I had been so lucky after my divorce!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank BLP for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
desperation, social security, suicide




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Social Security Switch - Need "Official Signature"? blauburgunder Finance/banking/taxation 5 02.12.2014 16:49
So called "unlimited" swisscom really got on my nerves DaGhost TV/internet/telephone 5 18.08.2012 12:21
What is the "Baton" called in Supermarkets Ittigen Food and drink 15 20.07.2011 00:21


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0