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  #141  
Old 19.04.2020, 19:13
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Of course.

but deciding on a large scale who is really ill and who is not is really difficult...
I disagree. Perhaps physical ailments we can see are "easy" to diagnose and determine whether "real" or not, but there are many mental ailments that are no less severe that are harder to "prove". This is made worse by the Blochers of the world claiming pseudo-illnesses.

Even with physical ailments the burdens of proof can often be outrageous.
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  #142  
Old 19.04.2020, 19:42
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Your friend's friend is thus just a collateral damage on the quest to keep the budget for social security growing and ensure low taxes.
This is one of the most astonishing sentences I have read in a while. Caring for unwell people is a social responsibility that is seen in some countries and not in others. It kind of makes me happy to know that back home in England even though the health service struggles to cope, the principle of society, that we help those who are sick because they cannot help themselves is still strong.
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  #143  
Old 19.04.2020, 20:26
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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This is one of the most astonishing sentences I have read in a while. Caring for unwell people is a social responsibility that is seen in some countries and not in others. It kind of makes me happy to know that back home in England even though the health service struggles to cope, the principle of society, that we help those who are sick because they cannot help themselves is still strong.
Do you really in England? The media is all over BoJo and Trump but the simple problem of the NHS is: far less ICU beds and respirators per capita than other developed countries. Simply put: the U.K. is not putting their money where their mouth is. For decades.
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  #144  
Old 19.04.2020, 20:58
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Do you really in England? The media is all over BoJo and Trump but the simple problem of the NHS is: far less ICU beds and respirators per capita than other developed countries. Simply put: the U.K. is not putting their money where their mouth is. For decades.
Missing the point completely. This is not about the nhs itís about societal attitudes.
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  #145  
Old 19.04.2020, 22:34
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Missing the point completely. This is not about the nhs itís about societal attitudes.
Sure. So the majority of Brits have elected consecutive governments who reduced a once leading health system to the point that people die. How is that not a societal attitude?
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  #146  
Old 19.04.2020, 23:18
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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Sure. So the majority of Brits have elected consecutive governments who reduced a once leading health system to the point that people die. How is that not a societal attitude?
An election covers an entire manifesto, the last few were about brexit in case youíd missed it. Itís comparing apples with oranges.

I would stand by the point that your average man in the street in Britain would not ever describe sick people who commit suicide because they canít get healthcare as Ďcollateral damage worth paying for lower taxí.
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  #147  
Old 19.04.2020, 23:46
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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I would stand by the point that your average man in the street in Britain would not ever describe sick people who commit suicide because they can’t get healthcare as ‘collateral damage worth paying for lower tax’.
the average man on the street in Switzerland would express a different opinion about this sentence than a brit?

I think this comparison is fairly useless. Every system has its pros, cons and implementation issues regardless of the intentions behind it.
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  #148  
Old 20.04.2020, 00:01
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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the average man on the street in Switzerland would express a different opinion about this sentence than a brit?

I think this comparison is fairly useless. Every system has its pros, cons and implementation issues regardless of the intentions behind it.
No, read the threads further up. Itís a direct response to a quote made earlier.
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  #149  
Old 20.04.2020, 07:40
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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do you really in england? The media is all over bojo and trump but the simple problem of the nhs is: Far less icu beds and respirators per capita than other developed and less developed countries. Simply put: The u.k. Is not putting their money where their mouth is. For decades.
ftfy....
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  #150  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:30
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

There's a paradox here. People effectively ill and in poor economical situation are in the worst position to deal with bureaucracy. Pain is the enemy of thinking, being in economical stress reduces the ability to think clearly. Who has not made a mistake when filling up some form and than caused an unnecessary delay even with 100% hysical and mental abilities? On the other hand, people committing fraud are in a better position to play bureaucracy. It's good to have filters that prevent fraud, but the system may put an excessive amount of stress on the already ill, the weakest ones that are very reason disability insurance exists.

On the other hand I remember a story from a colleague. He was the legal responsible of his aunt until she passed away. In this case he had a say on all he bills, relationships with doctors, etc. It makes sense, if someone is already ill and in pain and quite probably unable to think clearly enough to deal with bureaucracy, why not name a legal responsible? Maybe the legal thing is just formality, what matters is not being alone. Maybe the problem is not bureaucracy but not having anyone near to help when you need it most.
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  #151  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:42
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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There's a paradox here. People effectively ill and in poor economical situation are in the worst position to deal with bureaucracy. Pain is the enemy of thinking, being in economical stress reduces the ability to think clearly. Who has not made a mistake when filling up some form and than caused an unnecessary delay even with 100% hysical and mental abilities? On the other hand, people committing fraud are in a better position to play bureaucracy. It's good to have filters that prevent fraud, but the system may put an excessive amount of stress on the already ill, the weakest ones that are very reason disability insurance exists.

On the other hand I remember a story from a colleague. He was the legal responsible of his aunt until she passed away. In this case he had a say on all he bills, relationships with doctors, etc. It makes sense, if someone is already ill and in pain and quite probably unable to think clearly enough to deal with bureaucracy, why not name a legal responsible? Maybe the legal thing is just formality, what matters is not being alone. Maybe the problem is not bureaucracy but not having anyone near to help when you need it most.
I completely agree. There is a very good and efficient system of volunteering currators here, you see the campaign here inside every local bus.
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  #152  
Old 20.04.2020, 12:09
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

I trained at university as a welfare worker. My graduation work was on empowerment and advocacy.
Empowerment means giving someone the support, information or resources they need to fight their own battles

Advocacy means doing it in a way that helps them, but you are speaking on their behalf.

There are services out there that are intended to provide empowerment and/or advocacy to people. They are not the RAV, IV, or courts. They are organisations like ProJuventute (for youth and children), Pro Infirmis (Disability), Human Rights organisations, and in Switzeland a lot of support services are church-based - Caritas, Reformkirche etc.

They are community support services - or individuals who can do this. Maybe it's family, maybe it's a lawyer, maybe it's an advice service. These are of course harder to access if you don't speak the local language - I know there is a gap where the adults do not speak the local language - in our town they lack school social workers who can speak some specific languages and right now they need one who speaks Serbian ... because they know there is a gap between the school services and the Serbian speaking parents...

Other supports can be found in groups - support groups specific to a particular condition (eg. AA for Alcoholics, group meetings for women with postanatal depression, cancer support groups) - or more 'random' groups like sports or crafting where people connect and help one another across a diverse group.

There is no doubt long-term illness has an enormous effect on quality of life. The risk factors for suicide are well-known
    • Depression
    • Substance use problems
    • Bipolar disorder
    • Schizophrenia
    • Personality traits of aggression, mood changes and poor relationships
    • Conduct disorder
    • Anxiety disorders
  • Serious physical health conditions including pain
  • Traumatic brain injury
  • Previous suicide attempts
  • Family history of suicide
  • Childhood abuse, neglect or trauma
For all of these, there are support services available. Personally, I would not tackle the RAV, IV or any other Insurance claim system without my support team. My husband who comes along with me for appointments, my Swiss friends who have worked in the system or been through advocacy situations before. My parents who will back me up no matter what.

And I'm a trained advocate!!!

I totally get your point, it's definitely not an unknown problem and it's in-part a product of the system. But I also think that if an individual can hear that they are not the only one, they are not alone, it's not their fault and it's understandable that they are feeling like x because of situation y...then that goes a long way towards moving forward in a more positive way.

Actually, I think the social security 'fabric' is quite strong in Switzerland - but that does not mean it's easy to get the access to the support you need.

As a community worker, putting people into a room together, or in contact with one another (one of the great things about technology) - is that people learn from each other in a diverse way.

One really good website for more information is here: http://www.migraweb.ch/en/themen/soc...t/sozialhilfe/

And it's in many many languages!
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  #153  
Old 20.04.2020, 15:26
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Re: So-called "social security": desperation, suicide, capitulation or emigration

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There's a paradox here. People effectively ill and in poor economical situation are in the worst position to deal with bureaucracy. Pain is the enemy of thinking, being in economical stress reduces the ability to think clearly. Who has not made a mistake when filling up some form and than caused an unnecessary delay even with 100% hysical and mental abilities? On the other hand, people committing fraud are in a better position to play bureaucracy. It's good to have filters that prevent fraud, but the system may put an excessive amount of stress on the already ill, the weakest ones that are very reason disability insurance exists.

On the other hand I remember a story from a colleague. He was the legal responsible of his aunt until she passed away. In this case he had a say on all he bills, relationships with doctors, etc. It makes sense, if someone is already ill and in pain and quite probably unable to think clearly enough to deal with bureaucracy, why not name a legal responsible? Maybe the legal thing is just formality, what matters is not being alone. Maybe the problem is not bureaucracy but not having anyone near to help when you need it most.

This is where KESB comes into play, which this forum has also seen having their fair share of little horror-stories on its own.
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