Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Insurance  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: zurich
Posts: 44
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
MarkNow has earned some respectMarkNow has earned some respect
withdraw - 2nd pillar

Hi everyone

This topic has been asked before and i tried to search as many as i good answers but i couldn't find an answer (at least from someone that has done this already)

About the withdraw of the 2nd pillar the ch.ch site says....

Payout of the pension fund to persons moving to an EU / EFTA member state
Anyone leaving Switzerland to settle in an EU/EFTA member state, may generally not cash in their pension from the compulsory pension plan as persons in the new country of domicile are insured by law to receive old age, survivors' and invalidity benefits.

So in the case someone leaves Switzerland and goes to an EU country can he withdraw the 2nd pillar money or not (without want to buy a new house, start business etc)? Because i heared some people saying that it is possible and some that is not possible and also at the official ch.ch site this "may generally not cash" is a bit confusing and not clear also.
Has anybody done that already? Or even know someone that did it?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:14
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canton Zurich
Posts: 146
Groaned at 30 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 47 Times in 36 Posts
AquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthy
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

It depends on the country.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:19
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,063
Groaned at 363 Times in 304 Posts
Thanked 13,903 Times in 6,485 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Check out the thread/posts by Fatmanfilms? Afaik he managed to get his pension fund out whilst relocating to a EU country.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:34
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

You should high lite all relevant parts: "may generally not cash in the compulsory part."

Getting the non-compulsory part is easy when you leave Switzerland. There are no conditions.

To also get the compulsory part you must not be subject to the compulsory social security system covering the risks associated with old-age, death, and disability in the other EU or EFTA member state.

The simplest example would be that you are a retiree. Another example is the UK where the NIC is optional if you are neither employed nor self-employed.

See your annual pension statement how much you have in each pot.

For further details see page 28 and 29 of the following leaflet: https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/880.e
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:38
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canton Zurich
Posts: 146
Groaned at 30 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 47 Times in 36 Posts
AquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthy
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post

To also get the compulsory part you must not be subject to the compulsory social security system covering the risks associated with old-age, death, and disability in the other EU or EFTA member state.
Another condition I believe is that you must not be already drawing any old age or invalidity benefit from it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:44
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,063
Groaned at 363 Times in 304 Posts
Thanked 13,903 Times in 6,485 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post

The simplest example would be that you are a retiree.

A friend of mine did just that recently, retired and moved to Germany.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:46
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canton Zurich
Posts: 146
Groaned at 30 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 47 Times in 36 Posts
AquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthyAquoIcePostCH is considered unworthy
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
Check out the thread/posts by Fatmanfilms? Afaik he managed to get his pension fund out whilst relocating to a EU country.
It would be helpful to mention the country and/or link to the thread in question.
Quote:
View Post
A friend of mine did just that recently, retired and moved to Germany.
Took the whole amount as a lump sum?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27.01.2020, 16:53
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 20,974
Groaned at 448 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 22,199 Times in 11,512 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
It would be helpful to mention the country and/or link to the thread in question.
Took the whole amount as a lump sum?
I left CH & took the entire lump sum aged 52, it's based on the legal requirement for insurance against old age being required. If you don't work in your new country, (at the time of applying) or are self employed there is a good chance that you can take the money in full.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 27.01.2020, 17:11
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,063
Groaned at 363 Times in 304 Posts
Thanked 13,903 Times in 6,485 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
It would be helpful to mention the country and/or link to the thread in question.
Took the whole amount as a lump sum?

Yes, the full amount as a lump sum.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 27.01.2020, 17:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,019
Groaned at 277 Times in 162 Posts
Thanked 5,671 Times in 2,591 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
I left CH & took the entire lump sum aged 52, it's based on the legal requirement for insurance against old age being required. If you don't work in your new country, (at the time of applying) or are self employed there is a good chance that you can take the money in full.
That you can take the lump-sum if you become self-employed is clear. But if you are moving to another EU or EFTA country, a Pensionskasse stipulates that the amount needs to be transferred to another Pensionskasse.

OP, you should receive a statement of your 2 pillar pensionskasse at least once a year. You should call them with any questions:

Your yearly statement will also tell you how much is readily available for investment into property. My pensionskasse will also allow investment in property abroad, but others might be different.

Depending on your pensionskasse policy, you may have different stipulations on when you can withdraw the lump-sum amount. Some allow early withdrawal at an early retirement age of 58 (might be 59 for men). Otherwise it will be at the statutory retirement age of 64 for women, 65 for men.

There are good reasons why you shouldn’t take out a lump sum early - CHF 1’000’000 might look like a lot on your pensionskasse account, but spread it over the years until you die (unknown), and it spreads quite thinly if you don’t have substantial other savings to back you up.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 27.01.2020, 17:56
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 20,974
Groaned at 448 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 22,199 Times in 11,512 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
That you can take the lump-sum if you become self-employed is clear. But if you are moving to another EU or EFTA country, a Pensionskasse stipulates that the amount needs to be transferred to another Pensionskasse.

OP, you should receive a statement of your 2 pillar pensionskasse at least once a year. You should call them with any questions:

Your yearly statement will also tell you how much is readily available for investment into property. My pensionskasse will also allow investment in property abroad, but others might be different.

Depending on your pensionskasse policy, you may have different stipulations on when you can withdraw the lump-sum amount. Some allow early withdrawal at an early retirement age of 58 (might be 59 for men). Otherwise it will be at the statutory retirement age of 64 for women, 65 for men.

There are good reasons why you shouldn’t take out a lump sum early - CHF 1’000’000 might look like a lot on your pensionskasse account, but spread it over the years until you die (unknown), and it spreads quite thinly if you don’t have substantial other savings to back you up.
You can take the lump sum based on the requirement for insurance & thats it.

In CH there is no requirement to be insured if self employed, however the money must be taken within the first year of self employment.

Once you leave CH, it's based on insurance requirement in new country.

My pension fund has been invested in Fundsmith & has increased over 90% in CHF over 5 years, more in £/EURO/USD. I can't think of a single reason to stay invested in a Swiss pension, mine hardly increased in value over the previous 10 years.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 27.01.2020, 17:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,019
Groaned at 277 Times in 162 Posts
Thanked 5,671 Times in 2,591 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
Yes, the full amount as a lump sum.
If I understand you correctly, this person was of either early retirement age, so 58 or over. Otherwise at statutory retirement age of 64 or over, or was it earlier?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 27.01.2020, 18:02
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
That you can take the lump-sum if you become self-employed is clear. But if you are moving to another EU or EFTA country, a Pensionskasse stipulates that the amount needs to be transferred to another Pensionskasse.
If you are not employed in Switzerland you can not put it in a Pensionskasse. It would be parked in a vested benefit account. Some vested benefit account provider offer investments in funds, but it has to follow the Swiss rules for pillar 2 investments which can limit your potential gain.

Quote:
View Post
There are good reasons why you shouldn’t take out a lump sum early - CHF 1’000’000 might look like a lot on your pensionskasse account, but spread it over the years until you die (unknown), and it spreads quite thinly if you don’t have substantial other savings to back you up.
Putting the pension money in a 0.25% bank account would be very unwise. You must try to achieve an yield of at least 4%. The more the merrier.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 27.01.2020, 18:33
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,019
Groaned at 277 Times in 162 Posts
Thanked 5,671 Times in 2,591 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
Putting the pension money in a 0.25% bank account would be very unwise. You must try to achieve an yield of at least 4%. The more the merrier.
Agreed, but “no risk no fun” is not a good option if you are already retired and rely only on your pension capital. Or do you have a fail-safe investment idea that will safe-guard investments without fluctuation or risk within the next 20 - 40 years . Will buy you a beer.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 28.01.2020, 09:16
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 20,974
Groaned at 448 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 22,199 Times in 11,512 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
Agreed, but “no risk no fun” is not a good option if you are already retired and rely only on your pension capital. Or do you have a fail-safe investment idea that will safe-guard investments without fluctuation or risk within the next 20 - 40 years . Will buy you a beer.
Since you will live 20-40 years, in retirement, your biggest risk is inflation over your life time. Fluctuations over that period of time are irrelevant, what you need is average compound growth, the highest yielding asset class over the long term is equities.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 29.01.2020, 11:47
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Zug
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Flumps has no particular reputation at present
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
I left CH & took the entire lump sum aged 52, it's based on the legal requirement for insurance against old age being required. If you don't work in your new country, (at the time of applying) or are self employed there is a good chance that you can take the money in full.
How do you prove that you aren't working in the UK when you return? Having a battle with the vested benefits account!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 29.01.2020, 13:16
fatmanfilms's Avatar
The Marmite Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 20,974
Groaned at 448 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 22,199 Times in 11,512 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
How do you prove that you aren't working in the UK when you return? Having a battle with the vested benefits account!
You don't, the form you fill in gets sent to HMRC & they decide if you have to be insured or not.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 29.01.2020, 14:13
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Quote:
View Post
You don't, the form you fill in gets sent to HMRC & they decide if you have to be insured or not.
The forms can be found here: http://www.verbindungsstelle.ch/xml_...on/d51/f61.cfm

Use the one for your current country of residence and read the corresponding information leaflet. Once approved by the foreign country's authority and the Sicherheitsfonds BVG the money can be paid out.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 01.04.2020, 11:17
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Geneva
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
AdamGuy has no particular reputation at present
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Hi All,

I fully understand the conditions to take out the Pilar 2 but my questions is as follows:

I will be relocating to Berlin to start a business (Gbr) and I know I am entitled to the Mandatory part of the Pilar 2 as will not be liable for mandatory social contributions. I wanted to know if there is anything preventing me from taking the non mandatory part as soon as I leave and then the mandatory part once confirmed with the LOB after the 3 month waiting period? or must this be done in one withdraw? its also good for tax reasons...

Many thanks
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 27.04.2020, 17:24
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ldnhlj has no particular reputation at present
Re: withdraw - 2nd pillar

Hey folks, here is a technical one for the experts and the experienced:



Does anyone know if the 3-year lock-in rule after making voluntary additional buy-ins (i.e. to fill missing years / gaps in 2nd pillar in order to benefit from a one-time tax saving) apply for cashing out on grounds of self-employment in Switzerland and/or departing Switzerland permanently? If no hard lock-in applies, are there any requirements to pay back the tax savings achieved previously?



I know such a 3-year hard lock-in period applies to withdrawals for purposes of buying a self-occupied property in Switzerland. But not sure it applies to other qualifying reasons for cashing out.



Thanks in advance for any contribution!
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Withdraw 2nd Pillar buy property abroad while leaving Switzerland Guest Finance/banking/taxation 8 12.03.2019 13:01
C permit on hold - can't withdraw pillar 2? ivank Leaving Switzerland 2 04.11.2018 11:46
Tax on withdraw from 3rd pillar for buying property sassanomi Finance/banking/taxation 7 30.09.2018 22:17
Withdraw from 2nd pillar when buying apartment? sassanomi Finance/banking/taxation 1 07.01.2018 07:48
Third pillar and Withdraw Guest Finance/banking/taxation 9 07.05.2015 14:56


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0