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  #181  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:50
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Scary indeed.
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  #182  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:53
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Scary indeed.
Absolutely, so whether they have links to the EDL or not, some of the Tea Party followers are pretty much nutjobs anyway.
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  #183  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:22
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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I don't think most people are accusing Palin of being directly responsible for the shooting.

On the other hand, it does very little good to appeal to a deranged individual's sense of personal responsibility.

The argument here is that right-wing populist rhetoric in the states has reached such a pitch that it will encourage extreme action and in outlying cases send disturbed individuals in a certain direction.
The problem is the shooter was not "right wing".

He was a left wing anarchist.



Watch:

http://crazyconservative.wordpress.c...-lee-loughner/

This is not about politics. This is about a nutjob who belongs in a mental institution or 6 feet under the ground.
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  #184  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:26
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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So are you suggesting that in the U.S., it's better to lock the people away rather than the guns?
Yes, because it is not an issue of guns.

Guns are part of our culture. It is in our constitution. This is a complex argument, but I can easily look at Switzerland. Why don't they have the same level of gun crime?

Why didn't we have the same level of gun crime in the 1950's and 1940's? There were as many OR MORE guns at that time.

The guns have not changed. Something else has.

I think advocating stripping people of rights due to a minority of crazies and criminals is intellectually lazy and dangerous.

You can't "lock guns away" in the first place. America is very huge, there are millions of guns. Gun laws only restrict law abiding citizens. Criminals and lunatics can easily buy guns off the street. You think most guns used in most murders (often drug related) are "legal" purchased by that person at a gun store? Nope. Those people are usually repeat offenders, before they "graduate to murder" and they are not able to buy guns.
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  #185  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:31
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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The problem is the shooter was not "right wing".

He was a left wing anarchist.



Watch:

http://crazyconservative.wordpress.c...-lee-loughner/

This is not about politics. This is about a nutjob who belongs in a mental institution or 6 feet under the ground.
The grammar stuff is anti-government:

http://m.boingboing.net/2011/01/10/the-anti-government.html

The mind control, gold currency and Constitution stuff are all classic populist right-wing paranoid themes which you'll find all over Glenn Beck, Alex Jones and the like.

You should stop reading stuff like Crazy Conservative. The clue is in the blog name and reading it won't enlighten you.
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  #186  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:34
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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It's too easy to say: "that's the way politics is and has always been." When I came to Switzerland and smoking was socially acceptable, I was told, "it's the way it is and has always been" but nowadays we have smoke-free restaurants. We can change.

The Democrats say the Republicans are spewing violent imagery. The expats on this forum say the SVP are racist and use violent/negative imagery. There's nothing wrong with democracy but there's a responsibility on how we present it. Using violent imagery provokes violent thoughts. If we could change the politics to a objective, respective and thought-provoking rhetoric instead of sensationalism, we would be one step closer to a better world. This would be the best way to honor the victims of 9/11, Arizona and all those who have died due to politics. And perhaps it will save lives in the future.
I agree to an extent, but American politics has never been like that. It has been "rough and tumble" from the beginning. Also you assume most people are somewhat intellectual, fairly rational, and open minded. LOL THEY ARE NOT. Most people are fairly closed minded, are more interested in cheering for a team than analyzing complex issues and the position of different parties, and most folks most certainly are in no way intellectual. In fact most people prefer to think as little as possible, hence all the stupid TV shows.

For example:


Yes it was worse in the past. Ever see the movie "Gangs of New York"? Yeah that happened to, a lot.

Oh I didn't even mention Preston Brooks:

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Preston Smith Brooks (August 5, 1819 – January 27, 1857) was a Democratic Congressman from South Carolina, known for severely beating Senator Charles Sumner on the floor of the United States Senate with a cane in response to a speech Sumner had given that referred to Brooks's cousin, South Carolina Senator Andrew Butler. Brooks also was the first cousin of Confederate general Matthew Butler.



I'm not sure where people get the idea American politics is getting worse, in fact it has got better, historically it was crazy, often violent...I can bring in many more examples..
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  #187  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:36
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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Ok. So what does she do? She continuously uses "gun words" when she is talking about her political enemies - crosshairs, calling them target, asking supporters to "reload"... yes, it is all complete bullshit and any person in his right mind would only shake his head. But the shooter was very likely not in his right mind. To him, this type of populism might very well sound like a suggestion.
It might... if we had any evidence to suggest that Mr. Loughner ever paid Sarah Palin or her FB page the slightest bit of attention.

Which we don't.

(Or if someone does, let's see it. That's what's been conspicuously missing from the furor though. If Mr. Loughner had been a Facebook 'friend' or 'fan' of Mrs. Palin's, or had any other demonstrable connection, surely the media would be all over it, no?)

Furthermore, even if it were to be established that he had listened to her or set her "target map" as his cell phone wallpaper or whatever, I don't think Palin can be held responsible in any way. All the evidence right now points to Mr. Loughner's being simply a really mentally disturbed guy - probably full-on schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is one bad-a$$ mental illness if you'll pardon my French. I don't think public figures can possibly be held to account for all the ways a schizophrenic might interpret their words. Not legally, not ethically, not even a little bit. It's flat out unreasonable.

As for the prevalence of militaristic rhetoric in American political discourse - well, first thing to realize is that it ain't Switzerland; you haven't got a permanent coalition government. In fact you haven't got a coalition government full-stop. What you've got is a permanent, adversarial two-party system, and in an adversarial two-party system it is pretty darn hard to avoid phrasing things in militaristic terms.

Throw in the fact that for better or worse, guns are a cultural touchstone, celebrated or disdained purely on principle by large numbers of people who've never had anything to do with them (just like Whole Foods, Ivy League colleges, Nascar racing, the list goes on...) and it's pretty inevitable that anybody seeking to appeal to a certain swath of voters is going to move on from warfare metaphors to gun metaphors sooner or later, as a way of asserting cultural affinity. (That also explains why you so often see the same rhetoric employed - to greater or lesser extent - on both sides of the aisle: strict ideologues aside, they're competing for the same votes.)

By the way, we've seen this before. Used to be you couldn't even get elected dogcatcher in Boston without raging and thundering against John Bull. Some pretty inflammatory rhetoric was pretty standard there right up until WW2 or so. Of course the Brits were smart enough to parse all of it as diplomatically meaningless, intended for internal consumption only, and ignore accordingly. And that's the maddening thing about Sarah Palin, isn't it? I don't think she cares about convincing anyone in Europe, or even your arugula-munching coastal lib types. She's clearly talking to her cultural 'constituents', whom most of us are not. So why are we even listening?
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  #188  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:49
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, AZ politician, has just been killed

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One child died from the shots. All my prayers are with the family.
We join you!
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  #189  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:53
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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The problem is the shooter was not "right wing".

He was a left wing anarchist.


According to his own words did he read Marx, Hitler and "Alice in Wonderland". Ever read Hitler? I did. Mein Kampf is not exactly an anarchists dream...
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  #190  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:07
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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The grammar stuff is anti-government:

http://m.boingboing.net/2011/01/10/the-anti-government.html

The mind control, gold currency and Constitution stuff are all classic populist right-wing paranoid themes which you'll find all over Glenn Beck, Alex Jones and the like.

You should stop reading stuff like Crazy Conservative. The clue is in the blog name and reading it won't enlighten you.
Actually not really...

First off dismissing a website that has a video on it, it silly and intellectually lazy, specifically it is called an Ad Hominem attack and there is a reason it is considered a "logical fallacy".

Lets define Anarchism, so we are on the same page.

Quote:
Anarchism is a political philosophy which considers the state undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful, and instead promotes a stateless society, or anarchy.[1][2] It seeks to diminish or even abolish authority in the conduct of human relations.[3] Anarchists widely disagree on what additional criteria are required in anarchism. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy says, "there is no single defining position that all anarchists hold, and those considered anarchists at best share a certain family resemblance."[4]
There are many types and traditions of anarchism, some of which are mutually exclusive.[5] Strains of anarchism have been divided into the categories of social and individualist anarchism or similar dual classifications.[6][7] Anarchism is often considered to be a radical left-wing ideology,[8][9] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism or participatory economics. However, anarchism has always included an individualist strain [10] supporting a market economy and private property, or morally unrestrained egoism.[11][12] Some individualist anarchists are also socialists.[13][14]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism





Historically in the United States, right wing fanatics are not:


1) Anti-Christian, as this guy seemed to be.


Also being against "the government" is a position that is the result of a philosphy, but that in itself does not determine if someone is left or right wing.


Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Mihn, and Castro were all against their governments. There is a difference between them and right wing anti-government types.


This lunatic shooter wanted to "break the system" which is a almost always a left wing position. Left wing people tend to want to destroy authority or at least replace the current authority and strucuture with a new one that is more open to various groups or individuals. Conservatives almost Never talk like that.

So no, they are not the same thing. Glen Beck is not "Anti US government" he is anti-liberalism/socialism and "big government" which he believes is just a socialist arm. He wants government, in fact he wants a very traditional U.S. government more a long the lines of what it was over 100 years ago (actually I would say before the Civil War and the reforms Lincoln made).


Glen Beck definitely does not want to destroy the U.S. government, American culture, etc and replace it with something new and radically different.


Left wing anarchist do.
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  #191  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:08
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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By the way, we've seen this before. Used to be you couldn't even get elected dogcatcher in Boston without raging and thundering against John Bull. Some pretty inflammatory rhetoric was pretty standard there right up until WW2 or so. Of course the Brits were smart enough to parse all of it as diplomatically meaningless, intended for internal consumption only, and ignore accordingly. And that's the maddening thing about Sarah Palin, isn't it? I don't think she cares about convincing anyone in Europe, or even your arugula-munching coastal lib types. She's clearly talking to her cultural 'constituents', whom most of us are not. So why are we even listening?
Take the cuban missile crisis. Replace Kennedy by Palin. That's why we are listening (even if I don't think she will become Prez, she might become VP one day, that is scary enough).

A nuclear standoff between Obama or a moderate, well educated Republican and Ahmadinedschad is scary enough allready.
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  #192  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:09
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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According to his own words did he read Marx, Hitler and "Alice in Wonderland". Ever read Hitler? I did. Mein Kampf is not exactly an anarchists dream...
He also read the Communist Manifesto.

So what does that mean? Hitler was very anti-Communist as you might recall.

Hitler was a German nationalist.

The thing is both extreme left and right want big government in the end, because they both are so radical they can't possible accomplish what they want unless they force people in an organized and efficient manner. So Hitler had many things in common with Lenin, but the two men in the same room would have been at each others throat because although the method was similar, the ideology behind it was quite different.
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  #193  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:13
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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I'm not sure where people get the idea American politics is getting worse, in fact it has got better, historically it was crazy, often violent...I can bring in many more examples..
I don't think people are referring to the distant, 'rough and tumble' past. They're referring to the move to the right and the prominence of the lunatic fringe in the Republican party . . . people who are more interested in whether Obama is a Muslim or whether he was born in the US than in, for example, education policy.

Fine to use the occasional violent metaphor, in UK politics we had the 'double whammy'. But isn't holding up posters at a protest, advocating the use of guns to solve problems problematic?

I think many look back to a period in the recent past when Republican politics was more about consensus and values were less kneejerk. The main reason this kind of right-wing populism has come to the fore is that the GOP was so marginalised in the last presidential election.
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  #194  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:13
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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What you've got is a permanent, adversarial two-party system, and in an adversarial two-party system it is pretty darn hard to avoid phrasing things in militaristic terms.
I am not from Switzerland and every other country I know does not have a permanent coalition government... most countries do have some sort of two party system, sometimes with a small number of "side show parties". So yes: you do have a "political enemy" and you do need to take a stand and have a political discussion on positions in order to win your seat. Politics involves a lot of strategy and strategic discussions naturally sound pretty militaristic. But you know what? The examples I gave from Palin were not exactly "strategic". She deliberately uses not military but firearm-analogies wherever she can. I do not believe that politics need to be fluffy. On the contrary, you can call a spade a spade... or Arschloch if you want to... But in a country with a track record of people running amok with firearms - do you really really need to reload to take aim on crosshairs? Do you really need to demonize the President by calling him a Socialist/Muslim/whatever else they do not understand and fear? Why could you not simply say "I disagree" and have a debate on a topic? The tea party is in politics what trolls are on this forum - some people who enjoy to use unfair and frankly discriminatory rhetorics and spark controversy for all the wrong reasons. Politicians need to fight and discuss, but you need to fight for positions. Palin usually attacks a person instead...

As you want to practise your German: "Mit Verlaub, Herr Präsident: Sie sind ein Arschloch"...

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  #195  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:18
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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Take the cuban missile crisis. Replace Kennedy by Palin. That's why we are listening (even if I don't think she will become Prez, she might become VP one day, that is scary enough).
"Scary enough" if you take all the rhetoric at face value, sure.

What I can't figure out is why grownups who should know better continue to do so.
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  #196  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:40
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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I don't think people are referring to the distant, 'rough and tumble' past. They're referring to the move to the right and the prominence of the lunatic fringe in the Republican party . . . people who are more interested in whether Obama is a Muslim or whether he was born in the US than in, for example, education policy.

Fine to use the occasional violent metaphor, in UK politics we had the 'double whammy'. But isn't holding up posters at a protest, advocating the use of guns to solve problems problematic?

I think many look back to a period in the recent past when Republican politics was more about consensus and values were less kneejerk. The main reason this kind of right-wing populism has come to the fore is that the GOP was so marginalised in the last presidential election.
True, but we don't have to go far into the past.

Wasn't Reagan shot?

Ford was almost assassinated by a Manson follower.

Kennedy.

As far as this paranoia...it is not just the "Republicans were marginalized" they were marginalized with a half black man with a foreign name, with questionable religious values, and one foreign parent...

If you don't think that scared the hell out of a lot of right wing, especially rural, folks in the U.S...well...

It will pass, just like everything else.

One trend in history we forget is that Conservatives are a "weight". My meaning is that they stop liberals from becoming too radical and left wing (i.e. Communism, French Revolution, and other violent left movements).

However the things the liberals fought for, at least a more modified form, are the things that conservatives will be defending as the "status quo" in 50 years time. LOL



It almost always goes like that.

Usually the right wing goes way to the right as a reaction to the left going way to the left first.

The left is always left.

This is the ebe and flow of politics. A balance, usually is a good thing, too much of either side usually results in a nation you won't want to live in very long.
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  #197  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:41
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

It's rather bizarre to say that because someone reads the Communist Manifesto that they're a socialist.
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  #198  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:44
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

At first I was very worried that this was a conspiracy. I suppose all Americans think of the mad gunmen and the Kennedy's, so I was really concerned about the possibility of a second suspect who brought the assassin to the scene. Thankfully he was just a taxi driver.

However, a large majority assumed that he was encouraged by the threatening behaviour and language of some in politics. I agree with this; it is almost as if it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Why should we assume this? Because numerous studies have shown that children brought up in physically or verbally abusive households often copy that behaviour. If children witness violence on TV, in games, or in reality, they copy it. This doesn't just happen with children it happens with impressionable adults as well.

The cost in US ER/ casualty from gunshot wounds is quite incredible. Compare the US to the UK wth gun laws, compare the number of deaths from stabbings or guns, the evidence is clear- guns cause more deaths.

At the universities that I visited for prospective freshmen I asked - In light of Virginia Tech, what is your gun policy?- arguments arose, some quoting 2nd amendment rights others horrified that kids were bringing their gun with them onto campus. Teenager's prefrontal judgement cortex's are a bit undeveloped-they make rash judgements; look at the number of car crashes. You trust a kid with a gun but expect them to have a the odd mishap while driving?

In the US there are many reports (one last week locally) of children getting hold of guns and killing themselves or someone else. It easy to get a gun almost anyone can get a gun with fast clips. Please, at least lets get rid of these faster clips, put the safety catches back on and increase the stringency of background checks.

Today is expected to be peak day for brain swelling for congresswoman Gifford
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Old 11.01.2011, 15:46
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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As far as this paranoia...it is not just the "Republicans were marginalized" they were marginalized with a half black man with a foreign name, with questionable religious values, and one foreign parent...
If people develop irrational fears, that's very much their problem.

What are you suggesting an alternative might be? The Republican leadership should be to the fore in fighting any feelings of marginalisation within their base. Instead, the old Republicans are keeping quiet and the new Right are stoking those marginal fears.
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Old 11.01.2011, 15:50
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Loughner may not be able to cut a deal on insanity to avoid the death penalty.
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