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  #201  
Old 11.01.2011, 16:52
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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It's rather bizarre to say that because someone reads the Communist Manifesto that they're a socialist.
True, but it is equally bizarre to say that between someone reads Mein Kamf they are right wing fanatics. I have read it and trust me, Hitler would have had me sterilized, if not put in a concentration camp outright. Well...okay, I didn't read it all, about half, Hitler wrote such long run-on paragraphs, in minute detail, it was too boring to finish.

The other books on the guys list were Animal Farm, a Brave New World, etc. Not exactly a-typical.
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  #202  
Old 11.01.2011, 17:01
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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True, but it is equally bizarre to say that between someone reads Mein Kamf they are right wing fanatics. I have read it and trust me, Hitler would have had me sterilized, if not put in a concentration camp outright. Well...okay, I didn't read it all, about half, Hitler wrote such long run-on paragraphs, in minute detail, it was too boring to finish.

The other books on the guys list were Animal Farm, a Brave New World, etc. Not exactly a-typical.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/op...s.html?_r=1&hp

It's fairly clear to me that he was simply anti-government.

His 'concerns' fit right into a standard pattern, as described in this political classic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Par...rican_Politics

Anti-government sentiment can stem from the right or left. It just happens that the prominent anti-government movement in the US at the moment is from the right, as promoted by Glenn Beck and Alex Jones.
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  #203  
Old 11.01.2011, 17:16
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Well...okay, I didn't read it all, about half, Hitler wrote such long run-on paragraphs, in minute detail, it was too boring to finish.
Exactly. I just read some chapters and really would have put it away if it wasn't for school... it is completely pointless and the local telephone book is more exciting. So anyone who seriously calls it one of his favourites must like it for something else than its text. You either want to provoke a reaction or you honestly idolize the author.

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One trend in history we forget is that Conservatives are a "weight". My meaning is that they stop liberals from becoming too radical and left wing (i.e. Communism, French Revolution, and other violent left movements).
Could you shortly explain how liberals become communists? I have not heard of a more conservative and backward society as the ones in most communistic countries in Eastern Europe in the 80s... it was liberals like Willy Brandt and "left" trade unions that stopped communism.
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  #204  
Old 11.01.2011, 17:19
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Actually rather than say that the shooters craziness was politically inspired, I'm happier with saying that a lot of the political themes he included in his vid are a bit crazy. Please remember this when we discuss 'fiat currency' etc again.
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  #205  
Old 11.01.2011, 17:20
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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"Scary enough" if you take all the rhetoric at face value, sure.

What I can't figure out is why grownups who should know better continue to do so.
Taking 25% at face value is scarry enough for somebody who might get close to that button.

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One trend in history we forget is that Conservatives are a "weight". My meaning is that they stop liberals from becoming too radical and left wing (i.e. Communism, French Revolution, and other violent left movements)..
We got ourselves an american royalist here!

Besides, it works the other way round too.

What has changed though is the placement of the center for certain people, as moderate republicans are seen as leftist traitors (read RINO) by a considerable part of the more right-wing republican followers. That is quite far from the "big tent" idea.
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  #206  
Old 11.01.2011, 18:28
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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Yes, because it is not an issue of guns.

Guns are part of our culture. It is in our constitution. This is a complex argument, but I can easily look at Switzerland. Why don't they have the same level of gun crime?
So in the "land of the free" they lock up people & keep the guns out in the open. You can't honestly believe that was the intent of the US constitution?

The US constitution relates the right to bear arms directly to the right to have a militia. Not for very citizen to have a 9mm Beretta or a Glock 19. The idea that this is the case is just crazy.

In Switzerland people keep guns (or kept, it's much less now) in relation to an armed militia with the responsibilities that go with it, not to mention that often the bullets stayed at the barracks.

Basically in the US the armed militia has become armed gangs., thugs, mafia, drug lords, etc. I have no doubt the US will soon see the same issues that are happening the favelas of Brazil, or worse.

It really is crazy to me the number and type of guns that are allowed to be made and raw milk is illegal.


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I agree to an extent, but American politics has never been like that. It has been "rough and tumble" from the beginning. Also you assume most people are somewhat intellectual, fairly rational, and open minded. LOL THEY ARE NOT. Most people are fairly closed minded, are more interested in cheering for a team than analyzing complex issues and the position of different parties, and most folks most certainly are in no way intellectual. In fact most people prefer to think as little as possible, hence all the stupid TV shows.

I'm not sure where people get the idea American politics is getting worse, in fact it has got better, historically it was crazy, often violent...I can bring in many more examples..
And these are the types of people that should be armed?
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  #207  
Old 11.01.2011, 18:40
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Others can correct me, but to have a gun in Switzerland, the controls are more stringent. You really have to be Swiss man. If you are Swiss then you will have to go for training and that includes how to store your gun, safety etc. However there has been a rather high incidence of suicide or murder-suicide, which led to the debate about whether guns should be stored at the barracks. even my father's cousin- who was some kind of Lieutenant shot himself over a married woman. His death was not listed as suicide- accidently went off while cleaning his gun or something.
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  #208  
Old 11.01.2011, 18:43
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

When it comes to gun ownership, periodic tests and required training classes would do wonders, but to even suggest such things is a sacriledge in the States, evil "gun control".
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  #209  
Old 11.01.2011, 20:34
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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Furthermore, even if it were to be established that he had listened to her or set her "target map" as his cell phone wallpaper or whatever, I don't think Palin can be held responsible in any way. All the evidence right now points to Mr. Loughner's being simply a really mentally disturbed guy - probably full-on schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is one bad-a$$ mental illness if you'll pardon my French. I don't think public figures can possibly be held to account for all the ways a schizophrenic might interpret their words. Not legally, not ethically, not even a little bit. It's flat out unreasonable.
It's really important to understand that people with schizophrenia are far more likely to injure themselves than others, and that violence in schizophrenia is often associated with drug abuse, failure to take meds and the type of delusions experienced.

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2011/01/...ental-illness/

Loughner may be schizophrenic or psychotic - maybe - but he also has some other stuff going on. He's also seemed to planned out this encounter - not too delusional. If he can't cut a deal for insanity, then i say good. I think his ideas are reprehensible, but I'm not so sure he's insane.

I don't blame Palin for this. I do blame her for contributing to an a 24/7 news environment where we are bombarded with this extreme sort of speech. The result is that we become more and more polarized. You can talk about prior violent acts in politics, strong language, but 50 or 100 years ago, we didn't have it blaring on tv and internet 24/7. People would discuss it, argue, fight and then get back to their business. In our society, there is so much opportunity for extreme arousal. Someone like Loughner may have sat in front of his TV for hours on end, stewing. Or not.

Again, it's not Palin's fault. But she is among the most polarizing of political figures, and her words can have consequences. You can say, why not ignore her? But, the truth is, and there is some psychological research that backs this up - the more you hear something, the more you take it to be true. And she's among the loudest and most strident.
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  #210  
Old 11.01.2011, 21:22
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/op...s.html?_r=1&hp

It's fairly clear to me that he was simply anti-government.

His 'concerns' fit right into a standard pattern, as described in this political classic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Par...rican_Politics

Anti-government sentiment can stem from the right or left. It just happens that the prominent anti-government movement in the US at the moment is from the right, as promoted by Glenn Beck and Alex Jones.
Glen Beck is not anti-government that is really an oversimplification of his position (and no I'm not a fan of his, but I prefer accuracy). He is anti-big government.

Basically he is a small government libertarian, which was a common attitude, especially in the American south before the Civil war...when we said "These United States" instead of "The United States" (the latter happening after the war, and after a process of stronger Federalization).

Glen Beck does not and has never expressed wanting anarchy, to destroy the U.S. government, to have a new constitution, etc.

He is anti-big government, anti-socialism, anti-new liberalism (old Liberalism = Libertarianism, new Liberalism is "Socialism Lite", in the U.S.)
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  #211  
Old 11.01.2011, 21:37
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Exactly. I just read some chapters and really would have put it away if it wasn't for school... it is completely pointless and the local telephone book is more exciting. So anyone who seriously calls it one of his favourites must like it for something else than its text. You either want to provoke a reaction or you honestly idolize the author.



Could you shortly explain how liberals become communists? I have not heard of a more conservative and backward society as the ones in most communistic countries in Eastern Europe in the 80s... it was liberals like Willy Brandt and "left" trade unions that stopped communism.
The classic definition of a liberal in the U.S. was basically what we refer to as "Libertarian" today.

Modern Liberals (as they have been since WWI or so)are socialist. But during the Cold War, Socialism became an evil bad word in America, even a slur of some kind, so people don't use it much. Hell, "Liberal" in the U.S. is becoming this way, so people are now saying "Progressive".

It is all the same thing, it is "Socialism Lite".

Socialism is basically Communism Lite. Communism takes the social democratic model to a greater extent and nationalizes everything, and puts everything in the hands of the state, "the people" are supposed to be the government, but in reality it is a "communist party elite" that are for all intents and purposes the government. Since Communism is fundamentally against the nature of most humans, they must become more totalitarian to keep people in line, using violence if need be.

Many liberals in the U.S. apologized quite a bit for the Soviet Union early on, for Castro, etc. Hell, they still do in some cases. They (meaning the far left frindge) wear Che Guevara T-Shirt (although he was a murdering leftist scum bag who took freedom from everyone, but said he was trying to free the "masses"). Many of these people still fundamentally believe Communist is a good idea, it was just "implemented wrong".

The average Liberal is not that far left, obviously, but many do think Socialism is the way to go, and the reality is many things Karl Marx promoted (public schools, parks, national banks, retirement, etc) were implemented in almost every Developed nation, however there is a far cry from social democracy to Communism, that does not mean they have not historically been "kissing cousins".

The overall point is that it doesn't matter if you are far left or far right, the philosophy ends up the same, a totalitarian government, forcing people to do what they inherently do not want, an elite that think they "know best" about how to run your life, etc.
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  #212  
Old 11.01.2011, 22:01
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

I know we are taking about the US, but for those of us who come from the UK would find your description of a Liberal as a bit left of the mark. Whereas of course, Liberals in Switzerland (as indeed Radicals ..) are quite a bit further on the right.
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Old 11.01.2011, 23:07
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Wow, this thread has been quite enlightening.

The Gabrielle Giffords murder was a tragedy for my country (USA) in more ways than one and it is clear to me (a U.S. citizen) that it will have international consequences as well.

I am going to start another thread on this forum - which is what I should have done in the first place - to get some opinions on the very topic which I have been questioning for a couple days now.

I very much like this forum.

Thanks to the owner(s) and moderator(s) who started/maintain it!
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  #214  
Old 11.01.2011, 23:34
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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It's really important to understand that people with schizophrenia are far more likely to injure themselves than others, and that violence in schizophrenia is often associated with drug abuse, failure to take meds and the type of delusions experienced.

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2011/01/...ental-illness/

Loughner may be schizophrenic or psychotic - maybe - but he also has some other stuff going on. He's also seemed to planned out this encounter - not too delusional. If he can't cut a deal for insanity, then i say good. I think his ideas are reprehensible, but I'm not so sure he's insane.

I don't blame Palin for this. I do blame her for contributing to an a 24/7 news environment where we are bombarded with this extreme sort of speech. The result is that we become more and more polarized. You can talk about prior violent acts in politics, strong language, but 50 or 100 years ago, we didn't have it blaring on tv and internet 24/7. People would discuss it, argue, fight and then get back to their business. In our society, there is so much opportunity for extreme arousal. Someone like Loughner may have sat in front of his TV for hours on end, stewing. Or not.

Again, it's not Palin's fault. But she is among the most polarizing of political figures, and her words can have consequences. You can say, why not ignore her? But, the truth is, and there is some psychological research that backs this up - the more you hear something, the more you take it to be true. And she's among the loudest and most strident.
I personally know someone labelled as a paranoid schizophrenic- I still prefer them to Palin; trust them more.

Many in the US are hell-bent on the death penalty for Loughner, but even if they make a full blown spectacle on burning him at the stake, would it stop the inciteful rhetoric or the next 'nutter' with a gun?
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Old 11.01.2011, 23:46
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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I personally know someone labelled as a paranoid schizophrenic- I still prefer them to Palin; trust them more.

Many in the US are hell-bent on the death penalty for Loughner, but even if they make a full blown spectacle on burning him at the stake, would it stop the inciteful rhetoric or the next 'nutter' with a gun?
And you may be right to trust the person so labeled. The individual has a mental illness, but could be a highly moral person. Palin... I think she's an opportunistic rabble rouser with a really, really big mouth.

Death penalty won't solve this issue.
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Old 11.01.2011, 23:59
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Has Sarah Palin been murdering civilians in Pakistan again?

Bad girl! Bad, bad girl!

Oh, hang on... that was Mr Obama, wasn't it...

My bad, as the Americans say.
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  #217  
Old 12.01.2011, 00:11
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Glen Beck is not anti-government that is really an oversimplification of his position (and no I'm not a fan of his, but I prefer accuracy). He is anti-big government.

Basically he is a small government libertarian, which was a common attitude, especially in the American south before the Civil war...when we said "These United States" instead of "The United States" (the latter happening after the war, and after a process of stronger Federalization).

Glen Beck does not and has never expressed wanting anarchy, to destroy the U.S. government, to have a new constitution, etc.

He is anti-big government, anti-socialism, anti-new liberalism (old Liberalism = Libertarianism, new Liberalism is "Socialism Lite", in the U.S.)
It's a fine line between promoting small government and being anti-government. Of course if you're radically trying to reduce the size of government you are in some sense against it. Remember Glenn Beck's 'death panels' scaremongering? Or how about the FEMA concentration camps? Even in his less lurid moments his rants about the media and financial elites are straight from the pages of the paranoid politics manual. He'd be funny if only he weren't so aggressive and disturbing . . . It's even more worrying when you see that some people take him seriously.
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  #218  
Old 12.01.2011, 03:16
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Oh yea, Ima gown git me a Glock wid one o' dem wid der high capacity magazine, I'ma gown git me some pro tection.

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One-day sales of handguns in Arizona jumped 60 percent to 263 on Jan. 10 compared with 164 the corresponding Monday a year ago, the second-biggest increase of any state in the country, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-giffords.html

Anyone buying shares?

Glock GmbH, based in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria,


Sorry I beg your indulgence for taking this a bit off track- but a fascinating story of the Glock. At least Mr, Glock will be happy with the rise in gun sales- Violence begets violence.

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He is the man behind the gun. You don't mess with Gaston Glock.

His most trusted associate allegedly tried. Lured into a dimly lit garage in Luxembourg by his colleague Charles Ewert, the Austrian Glock stopped to look at a sports car at Ewert's suggestion. Suddenly, a massive masked man leaped from behind and smashed a rubber mallet into Glock's skull. Ewert fled to the stairwell. "I am a coward," he later told Forbes. With Glock off balance, the attacker landed another crushing blow. "I was fighting for my life," recalls Glock, 73, during a rare interview with the press.

Springing up on legs toned by miles of daily swimming, Glock thrust his enormous fist into his assailant's eye socket. As the would-be assassin staggered, Glock pounded again, knocking out a few of the man's teeth. The bloodied attacker staggered, then collapsed on top of Glock "with his arms outstretched like Jesus Christ," according to John Paul Frising, Luxembourg's deputy attorney general, who brought attempted murder charges against the attacker, the French-born Jacques (Spartacus) Pêcheur, 67. This was how the police found the two men at 9:30 a.m. on July 27, 1999.

Glock says he lost a quart of blood from cuts and abrasions and that he suffered seven head wounds. Yet as soon as he reached the hospital he summoned his personal bankers at UBS and Banque Ferrier Lullin. The banks held $70 million in cash, and Ewert had access to it all.
......

Jannuzzo spearheaded Glock's efforts to kill the Clinton Administration's voluntary gun-control effort in 2000--it was that or face a multitude of tobacco-like government-sponsored lawsuits. "Extortionist," is how Glock refers to the measures that would have introduced an oversight committee, as well as restrict how guns are sold. (The company's obstinacy resulted in 28 liability suits filed by municipalities claiming that Glock is responsible for murders committed with its weapons; 11 suits remain.) Jannuzzo also led a successful patent infringement suit against Smith & Wesson, which created a gun that looked a lot like a Glock--"I felt like my wallet was stolen," Glock hisses--and resulted in an undisclosed multimillion-dollar settlement. And Jannuzzo acted as pit bull in notifying 12 record labels that the company objects to artists using the word "Glock" in rap songs such as Dr. Dre's "Bitches Ain't Shit," mainly out of fear that Glock's name will become a generic term for handgun.
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Old 12.01.2011, 10:11
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Has Sarah Palin been murdering civilians in Pakistan again?

Bad girl! Bad, bad girl!

Oh, hang on... that was Mr Obama, wasn't it...

My bad, as the Americans say.
Some more much-needed perspective from DB that is no way tiring or annoying! This thread needs ya, don't stop.
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Old 12.01.2011, 20:31
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Here's Sarah Palin responding to Gifford's death and the backlash she's receiving. It starts off good but then dwindles down to a SNL (Saturday Night Live) skit. If it weren't so serious, it would almost be amusing.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...ting-aftermath
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