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  #41  
Old 09.01.2011, 00:51
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Not really:
- Reagan reduced income taxes (especially for the rich which was a good thing to do at the time, some argue that this act was the most important factor in the economic expansion that followed).
- Increased interest rates (to curb inflation).
- Increased defense expenditure (The USSR still was an issue).
- The only non-populist president that did not increase minimum wage.
- Opposed increased regulation of economic activities.

I can give Reagan a "B".
Looked the other way while Ollie North wiped his butt with the Constitution.
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  #42  
Old 09.01.2011, 01:36
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

No BS here- it's shooting straight from the hip with the message clearly stamped on the back of this T.Shirt! I still can't forget the innocent 9 year -old. What was Jesse Kelly (Gifford's Republican opponent) thinking with events like this? Seriously they should ban such events and Jesse Owen in my opinion should be investigated for incitement.

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What we can say is that today's shooting, whatever its motivation, comes after an election season that was marked by the language of violence, like Sharron Angle's call for Second Amendment remedies. And so today's literal violence in a political context will inevitably raise questions about the effect of violent rhetoric. Firedog Lake and David Safier each link to an ad they say came from the Pima County Republican website in June. It invites people to a fundraiser for Ms. Giffords' opponent, Jesse Kelly. The ad urges:
Get on Target for Victory in November Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shot a fully automatic M15 with Jesse Kelly
At the time, candidate Jesse Kelly tweeted that the event had gone great -- "great turnout," "great success." He tweeted a couple of pics from the event, including this one:


http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...wn?pc=25&sp=25

From one of my favourite films (inherit the wind) the following qoute:

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Because fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding. And soon, your Honor, with banners flying and with drums beating we'll be marching backward, BACKWARD, through the glorious ages of that Sixteenth Century when bigots burned the man who dared bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind!
Judge: I hope counsel does not mean to imply that this court is bigoted.
Henry Drummond: Well, your honor has the right to hope.
Judge: I have the right to do more than that.
Henry Drummond: You have the power to do more than that.
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  #43  
Old 09.01.2011, 01:41
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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You can track back the kind of government policies that fueled the crisis back to the Clinton government, namely:
- Low interest rates.
- Government backing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
- An explicit government agenda to support low income families to become property owners.
- Tax deductability of mortgage servicing with no counter value (and some people on this forum complain about the Swiss tax on presumed rental value! which actually compensates for the tax deduction on interest A far superior system than the American since it avoids creating government distortions that we know: incentivating through tax ownership over rental).
Quite a generalization/over-simplification and misleading (or plain wrong) in many respects.

- Low interest -- has been used by governments all over the world for many, many years in response to economic conditions (including Switzerland). In the US, this is controlled by the Fed, not the president (though the president does name the chairman and vice-chairman of the Fed).
- Fannie Mae was created in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970 and have always been backed by the government. (FDR and Richard Nixon were the presidents at these times.)
- Tax deductibility of mortgage interest - all interest on personal loan (including credit cards) was deductible until 1986 when the Tax Reform Act of 1986 limited this to only mortgage interest. (Reagan was president in 1986.)

Your only point that has some validity in the third point, and this was also continued under the Bush administration.
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  #44  
Old 09.01.2011, 02:23
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

The sheriff, says that there is reason to believe that he did not act alone, they have photos of another male suspect (white in his 50's?) an individual that they are actively in pursuit of. The sheriff stated that the US has some soul-searching to do with regard to the vitriolic rhetoric, the hatred and bigotry propagated, especially by some radio stations, and its effect on our young people. They have referred to 'those involved'

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Arizona has become a mecca for prejudice and bigotry
Gifford has been targeted before, windows broken, a gun fell out of the pants of an attendee at an event similar to today's, and a suspicious package being investigated at the headquarters.

Last edited by hoppy; 09.01.2011 at 04:23.
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  #45  
Old 09.01.2011, 04:00
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

I just read that a federal judge was also killed and this judge also had threats made against him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_806239.html

ETA: Seems probably unlikely that he was that target considering the final youtube message he put up. Seems like a bit of the wild west out in Arizona.

Last edited by miniMia; 09.01.2011 at 04:32.
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  #46  
Old 09.01.2011, 05:59
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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You can track back the kind of government policies that fueled the crisis back to the Clinton government, namely:
- Low interest rates.
- Government backing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
- An explicit government agenda to support low income families to become property owners.
- Tax deductability of mortgage servicing with no counter value (and some people on this forum complain about the Swiss tax on presumed rental value! which actually compensates for the tax deduction on interest A far superior system than the American since it avoids creating government distortions that we know: incentivating through tax ownership over rental).

So Nil, in summary, I don't buy your Bush argument. From an economic policy point of view, it basically was more of the same Clinton thing. Both get a "D" from me.
And I blame Eisenhower,I don't know the reason why yet, but I working on it
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  #47  
Old 09.01.2011, 06:52
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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And I blame Eisenhower,I don't know the reason why yet, but I working on it
Well I don't blame President Obama he is still my No 1. I am hoping to see him in person next week. However, if the vitriolic rhetoric gets too threatening I prefer him to stay safe and out of harms way; the country needs him too much. I never thought that I would feel this way about a politician, but there are many like me, that if necessary, would risk their lives to protect him.
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Old 09.01.2011, 07:28
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Crazy people do crazy things...because they're crazy. As much as I loathe Sarah Palin and what she represents, I struggle to blame her for this at all. Granted - it would be better if her rhetoric didn't take this sort of turn, and it wouldn't have been something that something like this might have crystallized about. I get that, but it unfair to hold her responsible for what the craziest person who shares her politics might have done.

Besides, there is a wealth of crazy stuff she did herself, directly, that disqualify her from being anything more than a side show.
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  #49  
Old 09.01.2011, 08:00
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

I don't remember the word demagogue coming up in my US schooling, much less discussions on how to spot them. Perhaps this is part of the underlying problem.
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  #50  
Old 09.01.2011, 08:32
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Crazy people do crazy things...because they're crazy. As much as I loathe Sarah Palin and what she represents, I struggle to blame her for this at all. Granted - it would be better if her rhetoric didn't take this sort of turn, and it wouldn't have been something that something like this might have crystallized about. I get that, but it unfair to hold her responsible for what the craziest person who shares her politics might have done. .
Well said. It was a political campaign, which has now backfired. Pulling it as a response to these events is the only possible action - not an admission of guilt.

Two hate figures - Bush, Palin. Both characterised as being stupid. But stupid people don't have the ability to get high office... on their own. It seems to me that if you hate Palin, you've got the wrong target. You're shooting for the puppet, when you should be going for the puppet master.

Oh, hang on, a number of shooting metaphors there. I must be inciting violence.

btw - my thoughts and concerns are with the victims, not with finding someone to blame, and definitely not with some daft Alaskan bint.
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  #51  
Old 09.01.2011, 09:09
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Well said. It was a political campaign, which has now backfired. Pulling it as a response to these events is the only possible action - not an admission of guilt.

Two hate figures - Bush, Palin. Both characterised as being stupid. But stupid people don't have the ability to get high office... on their own. It seems to me that if you hate Palin, you've got the wrong target. You're shooting for the puppet, when you should be going for the puppet master.

Oh, hang on, a number of shooting metaphors there. I must be inciting violence.

btw - my thoughts and concerns are with the victims, not with finding someone to blame, and definitely not with some daft Alaskan bint.
You give too much credit on the people's ability to deal with what ever the informations they get to use it with intelligence.

The reality is, if you have a public person passing some messages that could be taken for something else by crazy people, this public person has a responsability in the results. His job, as being a public person include a responsability of his speech. In this case, of course no one thought about provoking a crazy guy to commit a crime by really taking the Target List as a serious purpose. But someone did (we still don,t know his motive, but let's just assume it is the case today).

Someone in Palin's team should have thought about it more carefully. In the society we live nowadays, we must take care even more carefully of what message we send around. And someone with a public image have this power of provoking someone somewhere to act/react.

She is not directly responsable, true. But if this guy got warm up by this speech from her team, she does have some responsability in this. That list shouldn't have never been made the way it did. She lost one of her biggest supporter when that list came out exactly because it was disgraceful and irresponsable to pass a message this way.
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  #52  
Old 09.01.2011, 09:25
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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You give too much credit on the people's ability to deal with what ever the informations they get to use it with intelligence.
So what you're saying is that "we know best, and we'll do your thinking for you." Sorry, I don't buy it. Anybody can clearly see that such an action is morally and legally wrong, and blaming Palin and her team for not thinking through every way every whacko could take it is ludicrous, just as me blaming Jesse Jackson for every race-related shooting would be stupid.

Can I suggest to the mods that these posts be split off into a separate discussion topic? I think it's probably appropriate to have one thread for the people who want to mourn the event and another thread for the people who are looking to assign blame.
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  #53  
Old 09.01.2011, 09:43
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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So what you're saying is that "we know best, and we'll do your thinking for you." Sorry, I don't buy it. Anybody can clearly see that such an action is morally and legally wrong, and blaming Palin and her team for not thinking through every way every whacko could take it is ludicrous, just as me blaming Jesse Jackson for every race-related shooting would be stupid.
No you are putting words in my mouth.

Are you saying that a public figure could go out and say to the public:

Get your guns people, go out and shoot everyone you meet! And that guy can walk off without having any responsability on the wackos who may do it?

That would be seeing the society for what the society is really not.

Why do you think laws exists? To support the intelligents ones who can make propers decisions or for those who can't think for themselve and use common sense?

Everybody knows that you shouldn't kill, but a law exist to tell you that if you do so, you'll go to prison. How many stories in the past about gurus telling to their people to kill themselves? How many stories of people bieng manipulated by other people to do something?

Really, don't give to much credit to the people's ability to think by themselve, because sadly, too many can't. You have more insane people in the streets then in the hospital / prison.

Yes, it is our responsability, as a society to be careful of what ideas you want to sprayed out in the public.

For me this is common sense.
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  #54  
Old 09.01.2011, 09:57
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

well for once they cant pin in on al kaeda!
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  #55  
Old 09.01.2011, 10:21
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Are you saying that a public figure could go out and say to the public:

Get your guns people, go out and shoot everyone you meet! And that guy can walk off without having any responsability on the wackos who may do it?
Not at all - but that wasn't what was said, either. Sure, the campaign rhetoric was couched in terms of shooting and targeting, but no one ever said "go forth and kill," and this is where I start to get to get squeamish about this conversation.

I think that saying that laws are there to tell people who are stupid to tell right from wrong what is right and wrong is really putting the cart before the horse. Laws exist because we as a society agree to what is right and wrong, and the laws codify that, and the corrective actions we will take when these rights and wrongs are violated. Phrased differently - laws couldn't exist if we didn't already know that killing was wrong.

Which brings us back to this guy. As more information comes out - it is clear he was a seriously disturbed person. It seems, to me, that he was going to do something crazy. That he latched on to conservative rhetoric (which, incidentally, also seems to be a complete shift from where he was intellectually a year ago) is just unfortunate.

Should the Sarah Palin, et al, NOT use rhetoric that is so appealing to the disturbed? Yeah, I think so.

But are they responsible? I have a hard time saying yes. To some extent, it seems her conscience (assuming she has one, or political advisors if not) is telling her that she is not innocent, but I think she is also quite a bit less than guilty. The way this is being pointed at her, I can't help but feel like this is a bit of opportunism by her political opponents. It just feels thin to me (though, not imagined from whole cloth).
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Old 09.01.2011, 10:25
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, AZ politician, has just been killed

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So, just to take all subtlety out of this thread, are you (any of you) proposing that because Sarah Palin used crosshairs to indicate which political races she wanted to win (i.e. "target"), she has therefore incited this nut to violence?

I just want to be clear on this before I decide whether to laugh or.... well, laugh.
My thoughts too. In which case, a whole lot of typical English phrases will need to go into the trash bin of "politically incorrect".

No, this nut did not need any such encouragement. Obviously a wacko.
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Old 09.01.2011, 10:31
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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"...As much as I loathe Sarah Palin and what she represents...
Dude, you seriously need to re-calibrate your Give-A-Shit Meter. Politics is a stage and always has been. She's an acting out a role, just like our glorious Prezidint. They come and they go. Nothing to see here, folks, just move along...
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Old 09.01.2011, 10:36
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

American politics is anyhow violent
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  #59  
Old 09.01.2011, 10:37
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Not at all - but that wasn't what was said, either. Sure, the campaign rhetoric was couched in terms of shooting and targeting, but no one ever said "go forth and kill," and this is where I start to get to get squeamish about this conversation.

(...)

Which brings us back to this guy. As more information comes out - it is clear he was a seriously disturbed person. It seems, to me, that he was going to do something crazy. That he latched on to conservative rhetoric (which, incidentally, also seems to be a complete shift from where he was intellectually a year ago) is just unfortunate.

Should the Sarah Palin, et al, NOT use rhetoric that is so appealing to the disturbed? Yeah, I think so.

But are they responsible? I have a hard time saying yes. To some extent, it seems her conscience (assuming she has one, or political advisors if not) is telling her that she is not innocent, but I think she is also quite a bit less than guilty. The way this is being pointed at her, I can't help but feel like this is a bit of opportunism by her political opponents. It just feels thin to me (though, not imagined from whole cloth).
I was just putting words in his mouth like he did.

Now, if a Schizo murders many people, Is he responsible? Who is? Nobody? The hospital who released him earlier with a proper diagnose? The family who knew about his tendency? Who? No one? Really?

I believe that we are socially responsible of taking care of it. And to accept someone with public visibility saying out loud to go and kill someone (that is just an exemple) as not being responsible if someone does it, I think and believe that we are missing on what we are suppose to do, as a society.

The guy who is holding the gun is responsible, but if he is a schizo, the law makes him not responsible, so who should be?

If someone can go out and claim to anyone to go and kill someone, don,t you think he should be responsible? In that case, let leave Ben Laden alone, because if he did say to people to kill and do terrorism, he didn't put himself the bomb and kill them himself, did he?

Why this guy should be guilty of spraying hate but Joe Blow isn't?

Again, I am not saying that Palin is directly responsible, but yes to a certain level, her team is. They should never put up a list like this with those target pictures. Because that may push someone to take it literally.
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Old 09.01.2011, 10:38
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

With freedom of speech comes responsibility both from politicians and above all journalists.
Yes,pluralism, but with responsibility.
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